[Carl Russell]

Manage your use, not the forest. If your various uses are part of a normal complex of interrelationships then there will be minimal impact on the forest ecosystem. Only by allowing the forest to be what it is, or is going to be, will you be able to have a sustainable use of that forest. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Community in the most basic terms would be a group who interacts directly, or indirectly, around a site possessing resources that they depend on. In this way we obviously can see the whole world as a community. But in ideal human terms it probably needs to be measured in much smaller terms. Anyway, there is no requirement that the individuals of group interact for the purposeful benefit of others. It is the community that takes on a life of its own, as an organism, that benefits from the interactions of individuals.
Like Eric I have lived and worked for years in a community that hasn’t been that understanding of my choices. However, on many other levels I have found relationships that I benefited from, and found ways that I could contribute. What is lacking is an understanding by the group of the common resources that we need. Our global economy has dispersed the sources of goods now so that neighbors on the same street can have dinners that come from different sides of the Earth. This is the where our interactions as community members falls apart. We don’t have to care about the same patch of dirt, therefore we don’t care about our neighbors. This will change, and we will be ready. Carl

[Carl Russell]

The point of this thread was not to discuss the limitation of computers, nor the value of this site, but to explore the aspects of animal power that can bring a person physically closer to the Earth, and therefore more interested in participating in the system that they depend on for their natural resources. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod, I got to wondering why you want to drive them with lines anyway. This might help you decide whether it’s worth the effort. I can’t think of any time that I ever, in ten years, thought that I could use lines on my cattle. I think Vicki is right though, you should drive them traditionally until you are more comfortable. I want to say however that her comment about trusting them bothers me. I firmly believe, and practice every day (for over 20 years), that it is not the animals responsibility to be trustworthy. The team should trust the teamster, not the other way around. It is a very human trait to place the expectation of trustworthiness on another in a relationship, even on animals, but it invariably leads to trouble. If/when you drive them with voice, whip, or line from in back, don’t do it because you trust them to do what you want, but because you trust yourself for having developed the communication with them that they can count on. Once they trust you, you’ll have it in the bag. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ve got to say that there is no difference between any choice of species or breed, only differences in personal preference, or intended use. You can listen to, or read endless stories from proponents of one or another, and they will never answer the question, because it can’t be answered. Decide what your going to do for work, learn it, and figure out how draft animal power will fit into your objective. I have a picture circa 1930ish of a New England hillside farmer spreading manure with a Morgan horse hitched beside a Jersey bull. He knew what he needed to do and hitched’em up. Nice to see the threads developing. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Rick, Glad to see you’re aboard. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Rod, and Vicki, welcome. I’m really excited to see some oxen discussion going. I drove my Holsteins while behind them using voice and whip. This was accomplished by taking every opportunity that I had when they were working to step behind them, or just stand still as they moved for my command. I couldn’t steer them well enough to cultivate a garden row, but I sat on my logging cart and drove then when logging, and down the road etc.. As I said, I never tried reins, but it seems like it would be a simple matter of degrees as you got them accustomed to having you behind them, putting on the reins. I suppose you’ld use halters to clip into. I’ve seen that example in pictures, never a bit. Glad you’re on board. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I couldn’t agree more with Lynn about the constraints of this format. My discomfort starts when I sit down in front of this plastic/electronic/digital device. I don’t see this forum as a place for the cultivation of intimacy, nor do I see it doing the hard organic human work that we all have to do to really pull this movement together. I do however see a great opportunity for those of us like Eric, trying to pull together a livelihood of craft in an region where people have a hard time relating to his choices, or others of us who have been working up in the hills for years accepting the stares of disbelieving on-lookers. Now with this forum we can make some of the more regular contacts that we might otherwise experience if we had the communities we desire. We are not going to build amazingly strong bonds but we can take this chance to advance some of the discussions that we end up having with ourselves as we meditate on the leather.
Please try to understand the financial and time constraints that we had when trying to build this site, and the choices we had provided us this. I think it is very functional for what it is. Let’s make the best of it.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Eric,
Great to see your up early!! I say we were running down a hallway so enthused by our success we thought all of our choices were fantastic, we grabbed a door handle for the next choice, opened, entered and slammed it shut behind us. And here we are in a closet. No lights. No way out. We keep looking for something in here to solve the problem, to turn it into the next long hallway. We’re so convinced of our rightness that we refuse to go back. The handle is the only thing in here that we know will allow us to move in any direction, but it seems to be backward. Humility is a huge pill to swallow. Even harder is ignorance (in the good naive sense). We have really big cultural emotional issues to face before we all can embrace the changes. The facts are that we are who we were. We always will be. We are where we are now because of the successes of those who came BEFORE, not those to come, which is what seems to be the expectation now. Someone brighter than us will come to solve the whole mess. Well I have no problem stepping back to find those more archaic lifestyle choices, because I can clearly see that they represent the way forward. It is a true sign of adolescence to reject the guidance of your elders. Our past is full of wisdom if we can mature enough to embrace it. Living within the existing processes of energy flow, not only is a good choice for sustainable farming, it is one of the natural laws that we knew about instinctively, and now we’re going to learn about it cerebrally.
Keep up the good work on your place. I have gotten a lot of work done over the years with my animals on my small farm, but not without being creative about how to make ends meet. Sometimes the tractor is the way, sometimes it’s substitute teaching, but we can get nowhere with the animals if we don’t keep working at it. I have found my profit in places where money doesn’t count, and the processes of using the animals are fantastic for providing those rewards. An old ox-teamster from Nova Scotia told me that there is a difference between making a living, and making a livelihood. Of all the examples that we are choosing to set as we attempt this turn-around, I see this one to be one of the more important ones. Money, as important as it is, is our most powerful artificial representation of energy. It is our modern objective to turn time, food, fiber, soil into money. Robbing from the energy stream to spend it on things that require energy systems that further erode our resources. We absolutely need more food like Good Companion Bread, and I hope that these endeavors that we are involved with now will help the efforts people like yourself. Chore time!! Carl

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