[Donn Hewes]

Tim, I can relate to everything you say. I have never had any kind of moisture testing equipment. But if I did I am sure I would learn how to use it. I also think you are spot on about energy conservation. Since I don’t use a tractor (I have one, but just choose not use it in the hay field) I want to make every pass count. In the past I can assure you I have been tedding and stopped to look and realized what was in front of me was drying just ans fast as were I had been. Wasted effort. I particularly like mowing in the afternoon and tedding the next morning for maximum effect. I have two side delivery rakes (new idea and JD) but don’t use the old high wheel anymore as it stopped being repairable. My side delivery teeth are adjustable for tilt, but even with the maximum tilt for a loose windrow my windrows still won’t dry much after raking. This will not have the same effect as a rotary rake it seems to me. Just not sure how much that (small?) advantage might be worth.

Back to conserving energy, minimizing the number of trips is one way to do that. This summer I hope to make some high quality hay with another technique. Grazing the ground for an early first cutting; should set me up for a full, early second cutting that should come in just when the weather is getting good. I was hoping to demonstrate this to myself last summer, but you know how that ended! My interns are still calling me up in December and suggesting we “rake some hay” this week end!

I sure hope at least one of us is out fixing a wagon or mower or something!

[Donn Hewes]

Yes, drilling wood or welding steel is usually necessary, but the physics that make it work are very simple. If you have a ratio between two sides of an evener that is not 50/50; what ever the ratio is equate to the inverse of how much work each side will do. For example:

Take a 36 ” evener and place a hole 2″ left or right of center, now one side is 16″ long and the other is 20″ long. That is a big offset. Your smaller horse gets the longer lever and is doing about (math in my head) 45% of the work, your bigger horse gets the “short end of the stick” and is doing about 55% of the work. Useing this evener with a tongue you need to make sure that moving them has not crowded the big horse too much.

With the four horses I would make a custom evener that accommodated the ponies on one side and the horses on the other. I would make a wide evener with extra space in the middle. I would use two 36″ eveners and set the pony side about 46″ from the center. I would then place the hole for the other evener about 38″ from the center.

Bird you still didn’t tell use which type of PTO Cart you were planning to use?

I have found that driving four horses hooked to something that takes a good bit of effort is a special skill. When two horses are working hard the teamster learns to “see” this and fine tunes the line pressure and signals to keep them at it. With four horses baling there is a fair bit of swinging the horses left and right (imagine how you steer a tractor back and forth to follow a ‘straight’ windrow) For a beginning teamster it can be difficult to give all these steering signals with out killing the forward momentum. It just takes time and practice.

[Donn Hewes]

Question: which I & J cart are you planning to use? Motorized or ground drive? I have baled with two big horses and two Haflingers. That was with a motorized cart powering the PTO. This included pulling a baler and hay wagon. I just kept the Haflingers on one side and shifted the evener over a few inches. Maybe a 60/40 split. This worked OK, but I do believe I was more careful about how full I made the wagons than I am now. If you are planning to use a ground drive cart I will be very interested to hear how it works. With the ground drive cart you will not be pulling a wagon, most likely.

Like George I have worked big and small animals together many times. The walking speed is up to us and I don’t think you will have much trouble making them all go the same speed.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, Thanks for this important work. Every time I enter my woods now I see them as if for the first time. Today I completed a loop trail that covers the whole area. It had always seemed a little frivolous until I spent a few days clearing the last part and traveling it with a team today. It shows me many areas That I can work in and a better understanding of transitions with in my wood lot. I have two groups of beginning teamsters coming in February and there is no better place than the woods to get them started.

Let me know when the summit is and I will be there. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

The funny thing is this contradicts a little what I said on another thread a while back! The idea with a rotary rake is that it will not make the windrows so tight and you can rake hay before it has finished drying and let it finish drying in the windrow while preserving some color, out of the sun. The common view of side delivery rakes is that they twist the hay up too tight to continue drying after raking. This has been my experience.

On another thread I was questioning how valuable it would be or whether it was worth the extra expense. I still think that will depend on how well you have figured out the mowing, tedding, and baling. All of which can have big impacts on making good hay.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Gang, I love thinking about hay in the winter! I think the secret to increasing the quality of the hay is getting it to dry faster. There have been times when I dried hay more than needed due to equipment, weather, or scheduling, but in most cases it is a matter of planning to make it quickly. Not mowing too much, being able to ted anything I mowed in just 2 or three hours. I can usually use two teams and two rakes if I want to. This allows for raking, immediately followed by baling. Being available and ready to bale it all when it is ready. I think it is a life learning skill to be able to tell just when hay is ready. Every year I know I start to bale or rake at least once when hay is not as dry as it should be. then I hit groove for a while and as the weather improves, I usually have at least one field (usually mowed too much) where I know I should have been baling 12 or 24 hours earlier. One of the commonly held beliefs is that loose hay allows for hay that is a little less dry to go safely into the mow. I have never spent enough time with the process to see this for myself, but it would make an interesting question.

Now that I have a good ground drive PTO cart, if I find a good deal on a rotorary raky it will be one of my next tests for better hay. I can also use my tedder to bunch hay that is not quite dry. I never got a chance to try this last summer, but hope to this year. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Michelle, As with so many safety features and concerns, there are always shades and variables that might make something work for one person and not for another. Many folks believe it is an important safety practice to hook the neck yoke to the tongue even when hooking two horses. I just wanted to point out that the three horse hitch with a two horse neck yoke is quite different.

In the case of the two horse hitch, you are, in my opinion, attaching the neck yoke to prevent an accident should the teamster fail to hook the trace chains correctly. Correctly hitched two horse teams shouldn’t allow the neck yoke to slip off the tongue. With three horses hooked correctly and using a two horse neck yoke you can slip the neck yoke off the end of the tongue. This doesn’t mean it will happen to you or that it won’t, Just that it can and having them hooked correctly doesn’t prevent it. Neither the lines nor the traces prevent your third horse (not hooked to the neck yoke) from backing up. Of course a forward horse, or well trained, or teamster skill can prevent this, (one of these is likely what has kept your neck yoke from falling off) but that is not the same as saying “hook them correctly and it can’t come off”. Picture in your mind what happens to the other two horses when he steps back. because of the evener, they move forward with out moving the vehicle and that frees the yoke to bounce out or stay just by luck/ gravity.

Usually a three horse hitch on a tongue requires n offset tongue OR an offset evener, but they don’t really work together. I prefer an off set tongue were your evener is still hooked in the center of your cart. That is why the pioneer forecarts have three pieces of channel, center left and right; so it is easy to move the tongue.

I should also add, I don’t have anything against attaching the neck yokes as a rule. I use a variety of neck yokes including the slip on type, which I never secure if that is what I am using. I also use bolt on neck yokes and neck yokes that snap on. I like the figured neck yokes, but it is hard to have one on every piece of equipment. The snap on neck yokes have served me very well. A person should also watch the odd Log arch or other vehicle where the tongue is much higher than the evener. On a cart like that is is possible to pull the tongue way up in the air and by so doing slip off the neck yoke. This is a rear situation but just another one to be aware of.

[Donn Hewes]

I also like to work with out a forecart when it is practical. A forecart can be an advantage or a disadvantage. With my snow plow it is much easier and safer for me to be on the forecart than struggling through the snow. When discing or something like that, the forecart is equal to one horse. When a person rides a disc their weight is intended to hold the disc disc down, but riding a forecart in front of the disc it is just extra work for the animals.

One caution when walking behind a disc or other big harrow or drag. Make sure your lines are long enough to put your self fully behind and on both sides of the implement. If they aren’t long enough make them longer with a set of single lines or rope. It can take a little getting use to being back and far away from the animals.

[Donn Hewes]

I love hay making and like thinking about in the winter. We are feeding out some nice hay right now which is funny because I don’t recall making any! but I must have.

I all ways think about how I make hay because I have found, at least for me, it has been a slowly evolving process. I have slowly added tools and abilities as I saw were my slowest or weakest part was. Always aiming for better hay, less fossil fuels, more redundancy. and more enjoyable work for me and the animals. While I am very happy with my set up today after about 10 years of tinkering; I don’t think for a minute that I am done. I still see better wagons, loose hay, different rakes and tedders as all possibilities in the future.

Fun to think about while you are plowing snow or feeding hay!

[Donn Hewes]

Well, there are a few ” it depends” in my answer to your question. Who is the hay for? How much do you want to make? How much time do you have? How much money do you have relative to other needs? What horses and harnesses do you have? Do you already have a simple fore cart? This is something you will want. Do you have a tedder?

In most circumstances a side deliver rake will work great. I tend to only rake “dry” hay. by that I mean, the hay is ready to bale and needs no further drying. I realize that a rotary rake can be used in a slightly different manor. But back to my other questions. To what benefit? Other tools play a bigger role in good hay making, in my opinion.

A side delivery rake is fun and easy to use with horses. Hook it to a separate fore cart and you don’t have to unhook it. I have two rakes hooked up all the time. I have a Tedder hooked to a ground drive PTO cart, and I have a baler hooked to a gas powered PTO cart. I still need one more home made forecart to move hay wagons with out unhooking anything. But that is me, and the time constraints I have, the number of animals and help I have, and the number of bales and quality I want.

A rotary rake might improve my hay making slightly, but a new barn would do a lot more! Sorry for the long winded answer. Posting before coffee.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Stephen, First, I will say working three abreast is one of my favorite hitches. Lots of power, but still easy to work. Get some check lines ( I know that can be a confusing term). Mine have a snap and conway on one end and a billet and buckle on the other end. The conway makes it easy to adjust them to the perfect length for the team and evener. Usually on a daily basis I adjust them by raising and lowering where I put them on the hames with the snap. I still like a billet and buckle on the bit end. I could measure mine, but 36 or 38 sounds about right. With the Pioneer cart you are planning to move the tongue I assume? Then a simple three horse evener will work hooked in the center. Much easier than an offset evener. After I wrote that I realized you were talking about the off set evener. The off set evener uses a little bit of leverage to equalize the two sides. I have watched them work and a chain would upset their basic function, but I don’t have much experience working with one. I have always used the offset tongue and centered the evener.

For your purposes the tongue and neck yoke are just simpler with the western britchen. You just use your standard two horse yoke on the end of the tongue. While many of us might debate the need for attaching the neck yoke to the tongue every time you use it, even when horses are properly hitched; this is not a debate with three head on a two horse neck yoke. Imagine a simple slip on (ring type) yoke. When the third horse momentarily steps back from the load the yoke instantly come right off the end of the tongue. In this case there is no debate. the yoke must be attached to the tongue.

There are some tricks to using this line set up. This is by no means the only way to drive three. With lines this way, before you hook to something you are vulnerable before you get hooked up. The horse in the middle takes a step back; that brings the other two back and out, etc, etc, etc. Some folks prefer triple lines for this reason; I just like these lines because they are simple. The short checks are always hanging on the harness.

I find the young or green horse works best on the out side. I like to put a confident horse in the middle. Again the horse in the middle is “steering” the other two. Must be calm but up enough so we don’t get hesitating, etc. That horse will be learning to have some one on each side for the first time. For most experienced horses this is no issue at all, but it will be a little close for a green horse that may not be a herd leader to begin with.

I will see you in January, maybe if I get there early we can drive a team. D

[Donn Hewes]

It is a great feeling though, ain’t it! It was a great two days and way to short. I know Carl and I both came home with lots of ideas and enthusiasm (something we weren’t really lacking before) for the possibilities up in our neck of the woods. One of the things that I have picked up through visiting with Jason and the rest of the gang, as well as Carl and my friends up in the north woods is that this isn’t just about using horses or mules, or oxen; it is much bigger than that. Sure, those animals in the woods are important, maybe even central, but the goal is restorative forestry.

I like to go on these trips because I learn so much. About trees, felling, growing, identifying, selecting which stay, then looking for which go. Looking at the surroundings, the potential jobs, and impact we can have on our environment. It has made me a better farmer, as I have come home and looked more closely at my own land. Keep an eye peeled as we head into 2014 because the gears are turning.

Not to mention watching Farmer Brown mix it up with Ronnie Tucker. I just know there is an episode of “america’s funniest videos” in there some where. Over the years I have been incredibly lucky to stand and watch many great teamster’s. I have come to believe that they are more similar than different. Horse and mules respond to people with a certain tone in their voice and demeanor. That is what makes these get togethers so fun for me; watch all these folks of different cultures, ages, and backgrounds debate and haggle over every little thing, and then just listen to how they work with their animals. Their differences fad away. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi George, Well, it has Taken me two tries so far but that is still pretty cool. My picasa page didn’y have copy url, but it had copy image location. That seems to work. Now I just hit “apply Image” ? we will see.

Who says you can’t teach an old dog new tricks! Thanks George, That is great. D

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, One of the main distinctions of the D ring harness is where the “front side strap” from the yoke, transfers the load to the back saddle through the D ring. This would not be possible with a belly backer, and is the major difference between the D ring and the “side backer” which doesn’t include that feature.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Erika, Attaching a horse in the middle of a yoke like yours will work, but probably not for a d ring. With a western britchen harness, it is not a big deal and only means that when backing or stopping the horse in the middle will do 1/2 the work and the others will do a 1/4 each. With a d ring hitched to carry the tongue as intended it won’t balance very well; the extra load in the middle makes the broken (ring in the middle) neck yoke not straight. It might be possible to make two yokes that are 16″ on the outside and 32″ on the inside (they would over lap and need to pass each other easily). Then I think you could hook the center horse jockey yoke to one yoke on the left and the other on the right. The hard part will be making them pass each other with out any sticking.

The straight yoke with three attached Jockey yokes is pretty much what Les Barden described to me. I have used it in the field as well as at the Field Days, and it works OK. You do notice the tension coming off and on an individual momentarily, and this would be unavoidable with the straight yoke. That is why I will continue to look for another option. As a side note, my four horse neck yoke works great with a D ring harness.

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