[Donn Hewes]

I think an arangutang settles down sooner than a renagade but that may depend on what movies you watch. Boy these computers sure are squirelly, I hit the click to donate button by accident, and had to have my wife get me out of it with out paying anything. Close call! Carl, I think the mentor thread sounds good. I am studying for a test tomorrow on High angle rescue training, but I will add to it soon. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, I am planning to come, and I hope Maryrose will too. I like the idea of being involved. I think the “green Horse” would lend it’s self better to a demonstration (or a series of demonstrations) rather than a workshop. I would really emphasis my belief that in most cases, it takes a certain amount of experience as a teamster before one should start training green horses.
I also had thought about bringing a Pto forecart with brakes and a four horse neck yoke (I would need a teamster with four head). The main attribute of the cart is it was locally constructed and is good hills. Probably don’t want to do both, but who knows.
Anyway count me in, but lets keep thinking about how I can best contribute. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Wish I was in the market for some horses, as they sound really nice. How lod are they? have you got an pictures? Thanks, Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Carl and Plowboy, I think you are right that there is a limit to how well we can (or I can) describe these things. Experience and seeing and feeling are far more useful for things like this. On the other hand this is how we can get new ideas, new ways of looking at what we are doing, things to try or think about. Haveing said that I would like to reiterate an observation I made yesterday. Prior to a few months ago I would have assumed, as I think you both do, that the animal bitted down is working under some pressure that can’t be released with out looseing control. This is not the case with this mule. This is not to say I won’t have problems with her in the future or that the bit is a cure all. Only that her response to it is interesting. Rather than think this must be wrong because of what I had trained myself to believe about the bit, I am looking at her and feeling what I get from the lines and knowing what I am after, find this is working.
I would not suggest you go out and change all your bits, but that my recent experiences have added a bit to my tool box. I would think it is much the same with a twisted wire bit. In the wrong hands, or on the wrong horses many would say that is a harse bit. In the past I would have felt the same. If I saw one in use today I would look at it more closely to see how the horse and teamster could use it to communicate. what were the results. donn

[Donn Hewes]

I have found (with a couple of beef cows but also with years of commercial dairy cow experience) that the animals benefit from shade. I’m a firm believer in reducing stress to improve productivity and heat = stress. If the herd is too big for a portable shade shelter, you could use a shade paddock for a few hours during the day when the heat is most intense. Once the herd learns that they are being moved to an area that makes them more comfortable, they will move willingly. They can browse for a few hours, then they will be glad to go back to their paddock and high quality feed. Maryrose (Donn’s wife)

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, I wil relate my most recent experiences, but I think Jason has a hundred times the experience with this. I am still thinking a lot about what he said. My newest trainee is on a staight bar bit at the moment so I haven’t changed everything I do overnight.
I drove a team of mules today that were bitted down. The young one to the middle of the bit, and the 12 year old on the bottom of the bit. This 12 year old mule has given me problems off and on since I got her 2 years ago. She has also had times when she worked great. She was bitted down when I first got her and my first reaction was is that really neccessary? What I realize now is that “neccessary” was not really the right question. It implied that there was something wrong with it (harsh bit?). The real question was is it working? How was it working? Could the mule and the teamster use it to comunicate effectively.
What I saw today, and have been discovering for the last couple of months (with Jason’s help), is she works great this way. She will drop her head and relax, she lightens up on the lines to the extent that she is not pulling on her chin and the bit is not harsh because she accepts it. Her response to my signals for turning, stoping, and fanning are smooth and precise because she is listening, but relaxed. It maybe just her history and how she was trained – Someone else with more training skill or more time may have changed it but I shouldn’t have. The fact that this bit helps her relax is the most intriguing part for me. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, exciting and hard work, just how we like it. I have a couple of other pasture projects that involve trees. I am trying to return trees to the pastures to improve the cycling of minerals. In on case, we are planting Locust, Oak, and other nuts that will produce high shade(forces the animals to move rather than lie under it. Than we have to learn to graze around them, (and make hay) while they grow. In another area I am thinning poles for fire wood, and clearing some rough ground to create treed pasture. I have done an acre a year, but if I did any more, I would have too much fire wood. I started my Pasture Cam there today too, but I didn’t post all the pictures. You can see them here. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

The jack that we used died last year and we thought he was pretty good. You are right, there are not very many in this area. The Amish near Romulus, (can’t remember the name) had a couple but they were both too small, and as a result the mules were small. You really want to be close to 1000#. Another problem is many jacks are kept for breeding only, which is OK as far as it goes, but it makes it difficult to judge some of the qualities of the animal. I tell my wife, “You will know I am a rich man when I have a barn with jacks and mares”. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Erik, It is something I think about all the time. I some ways we are well situated for a slower economy. We grow food which is something people will continue to need, and we farm with very low inputs which helps protect us from rising costs. We do have some liabilities and may have to make adjustments in the years ahead. We currently consider our products sold locally if we take them to the Ithaca Farmers Market were we are able to sell them for a premium price. In the future I think we may need to consider selling to our neighbors as truely selling locally. This may affect what we choose to produce (more meat and vegetables) and simplify the cheese making. There isn’t one part of our farm I don’t expect to be different in five or ten years. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Jason, I hope you weren’t kidding about suffolk mules. You should never kid a mule man! (at least not about Mules). About ten years ago there were a pair of suffolk mules advertised in the SFJ I really wanted them but they were in Tenn. and I was in Wa. State. Now, I have a pretty full barn at the moment but I also have two animals near thirty and another over twenty. I would like to start planning now for a young mare that would also be a good mule mother. For me the ideal horse size is 16h and 1500 to 1600#. I just bought a 3 y/o belgian mare whose mother and 5 and 7 y/o full sisters fit this size perfectly. I want the mare for mules to be a little bigger, like close to a ton. maybe an inch or two taller. Do you think the suffolk would make a good mule? I do. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Plowboy – I couldn’t agree more. It may not be a solution for those that are just starting out. But I do think it is the best way to replace your own stock. It maybe even more important with a mule. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi everone, Carl, I like what you say about trust. It worked great until something happened. Responsibility and knowing your work/animals (nod to plowboy) is a much better thing to focus on.
About round pens, they can be very useful tools and I will mention a few of the ways I have used them. I will also suggest some limitations. With an experienced teamster the round pen is one way (not the only) to start the working relationship with the totally green horse. Without going into great detail, the round pen provides the animal with a limited amount of freedom in which to make choices. The trainer’s role is to control the situation such that the animal is confronted with choices, rewarded for making the right choices, and corrected for making the wrong choices. While this may sound very simple it is not. Because you are working with so few props or tools this process is entirely dependent on your ability to read the animal.
For an animal that has had their foundation training started but may need further training, or a supposedly trained horse that is new to you, a round pen may be useful but is by no means essential. I do a lot of work on a limestone pad between two barns where the paddock is completed by single electric poly wire. This is useful for certain kinds of training where I am not pushing the animal away so hard, and because these animals spend a lot of time in this paddock they respect it as a barrier. Some round pen practices can be done in a small pasture if you can keep the animal’s attention.
Whether in a round pen or not there is a lot to be said for training an animal that is unrestrained (in a limited area). This is the best way to teach them to pick up their foot (start with a rope under the pastern), roping out, sacking out, harnessing, etc. It reinforces for them, and you, that there is acceptance involved in what we are doing. This kind of work usually follows other work that prepares them for what you are asking for.
Many times I have seen or heard of someone going to the round pen because ‘they’ were not sure how to proceed. At least it seemed safe. There are a couple of problems with this. First, if a horse is trained and ready to work they will be skeptical of your low expectations, and they may sense you’re not leading the team. Every new team for you (no matter how well trained by someone else), no matter who the teamster is will question who is going to lead, some do it politely, others less so. You must convey your ability and intention to lead from the out set. Second, the round pen is a place for training horses, but not teamsters. If you take a good horse into a round pen and fail to recognize the cues they are sending, (ie. acceptance or defiance) and fail to respond appropriately you are confusing the animal and potentially damaging their training.
I have some more questions about logging and workshops but I will save them for another post. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hello to all the mule People,
We must remember that we are different, and try to be patient with everone who has not yet learned about mules. Just kidding, but seriously I think Carl said it earlier and others as well, the different breeds and species are more about preference than anything else. Having said that I think those considering getting animals for the first time would do well to consider what size of animal they really want. By comparing the number of days you expect the animal to work to the number of days you will have to feed it, you may find advantages in smaller draft horses, mules, or draft ponies. Of course it depends on the work you want to do. On a farm you can almost always find a hitch that will do the same work with smaller animals, maybe just more of them. In logging (I am not a full-time logger) you might need the larger horses to make production.
Having said all that, I do like my mules, and I have three percheron mules. I would post some pictures but I haven’t figured out how yet. I do think mules think a little differently than horses, and for a person that likes mules that is just an added challenge. About fifteen years ago my first team was mules and they were runaways and I had a terrible wreck with them. I did not belong anywhere near them as I did not know what I was doing. They were beautiful animals and even though I did eventually get help and drive them, they went on to happy lives as pack animals. Ever since then I have believed that the best way to get a good mule was to have it born on the place. I think that many of the benefits I am talking about would apply to horses as well, but it may be even more important with the mule. I have had two experiences in the last few years that have confirmed this belief so far.
First, George was born here in April, 04. His mother was a percheron mare close to a ton, and George is a good sized fellow. Most of George’s training came from daily handling as we lead horses and mules to pasture, (I often lead six at a time), and ponying alongside his mother as she raked, spread manure, and pulled a wagon. Last summer George was working open faced on a rake, and a tedder, and this year he will graduate to mowing and baling. George got EPM a little over a year ago. He made a great recovery from a very severe case, but is still effected. It took the most graceful animal you could imagine and gave him a slight hitch in his giddyup. EPM is a whole other story but the bottom line is he has been a treat to work with ever day I have had him.
Lucy and Ethel on the other hand, are a pair of 12 y/o percheron mules I bought after George’s mother died. They are big, 1500 or 1600 pounds, and beautiful, but they have been a handful. I like them and have worked hard to make them succesfull on my farm, but there have been a few times when I was ready to let them go. I think any animal (horse or mule) that is 12 y/o has alot of history that you don’t really know about. Mules are a little more wary of letting go of their previous experiences in favor of the good news you have brought.
Well, I could go on and on, but must go to the other job, Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Beck and welcome, My wife and I have a small sheep dairy near Cortland, NY. I do alot of our farm work with horses and mules, and I love it. Let me know if I can be of help. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Jason, The ‘dog harness’ is just scraps from the old harness pile. “jack” is just 11 months old so he really needed something to do to burn alittle energy. It is fun and gives us a chance to work with him alittle as all the sheep stay quietly in the barn. I think next summer I will make him a little cart to carry electro-net and mineral feeders from pasture to pasture. Thanks for the thoughts on lever bit. It kind of fits with, and broadens the direction I was going anyway. I will try to post some of my photos, but it my be next week before I do. My Wife is home tonight so I gotta clean the house and tomorrow we are off to the NOFA Conference. Donn

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