[Jim Ostergard]

Thanks Rod,
I have done the banana thing myself. I’ll give it a try. My wolfhound loves them! I’m sure I could mush them into his feed, unless he is completely turned off. Maybe in the beet pulp I feed in the winter.
Thanks again…Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

You are very kind to share your feelings of loss with all of us. I cannot say anything except to let you know my thoughts and prayers are with all of you
peace….Jim O

[Jim Ostergard]

Luke,
Nice to hear your perspective. Nice to have someone on the, “inside,” who has actually knuckled dragged his/her way through a wood lot. We see lots of small lots here in the mid-coast area of Maine. Lots were part of larger parcels cut off some years ago and the work is really, worst first or low quality wood for the most part. Finding folks who are will to share in the cost of horse logging is a task.
I may be old but don’t feel like a relic although I agree many folks think of animal logging that way.
I am working on the local and regional land trusts. They can be a hard nut to crack although one would think they would welcome our type of harvests. Lots of old school (read industrial) foresters seem to have them in their clutches. I read a Maine Tree Growth plan done recently for a piece given to then land trust with the explicit instruction that animals be used in any harvest. The forester actually stated at the end of his plan that animal logging was inefficient and expensive. A real slam. I wondered who he was working for! Seemingling not the land owner.
On the relic issue. I have found that in a group of land trust folks mention one is a logger and most people don’t really want to talk to you. Mention horse logging and its, ” wow that is wonderful.”
Anyway, enough of this, I’ve got a horse with scratches and I need to get him back to work. Welcome to this wonderful forum and keep us informed.
JIm

[Jim Ostergard]

Yes, we got snow today also Carl. Not much 4-5″ so not too much of a problem in the woods. Some of the wood on the bottom of piles is frozen but the real problem is no frost in the ground and the snow is melting from the ground up. Easy to break through into the mud where we havn’t packed a road or trail and driven the frost in.
Cheers and work safe.
Jim Ostergard, Appleton, Maine

[Jim Ostergard]

Jason,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Its wicked cold this morning, close to 0 degrees here on the cost and with the NW breeze not much of a day for work outside.
I agree the mainstream forestry paradigm is not so much about leaving good wood as production. When I first cut wood here it was all production, we hauled our 4′ spruce and fir to a rail car siding and had loaded it. Actually we made some money back in the 70’s. Now conventional logging is a hard show with machinery costs and operating expenses so high.
I my area now we have a somewhat more enlightened landowner coming in. they typically are not so dependent on the harvest for income as was the traditional way and the way it probably is in most cases in Appalachia. This gives us an opening for practicing a more sustainable harvest method. And, I’m thankful for that as it gives the the chance to use the hourly or day rate much more often than I was able to in the past.
It is hard to sometimes through out the apples and orange comparisons especially coming out of the resource extraction tradition (I fished commercially for 20 years in addition to working in he woods) and this forum and discussions with other loggers who use horses really helps. I recently talked with a fellow from Payuer the loader manufactures in Quebec. He said I could easily pay for the $20,000 team driven loader with increased production. My experience with one on a skidder does not bear this out. If I broaden my perspective and forget how we do it with the skidder and think only about how it would work with horses it becomes a different discussion. So something learned by listening to others. So good amount of wood was moved in this part of Maine on a scoot!
As we all grow stronger through sharing here and elsewhere we will carry these concepts to landowners and a change will (is now) occur. So its important that we keep weaving the threads.
More later, got to get some hay out.
Thanks Jason and all the other out there who are sharing.
Jim Ostergard, Peregrinator Services, Appleton, Maine

[Jim Ostergard]

Jason,
It is important to share this discussion as much as possible. I get call all the time from folks wanting to know what to charge. I’m pretty sure each area is different, depending on markets on the one end and the kind of land-owners one is working with. Here in the mid-coast of Maine where there is 1) not a lot of real good wood, most of it having been cut heavily in the last 15 years, 2) lots of skidder and mechanical crew compition, 3) old style foresters who are looking for their 15% of the sale and lastly the low production with animals it presents a real challange.
I agree with Simon, each job is different. I have a little edge on pricing with pine pulp (which we have a lot of) as a certified master logger. The mills are giving us a premium. Other than that we really have to try and locate the land-owner who understands and wants to do something different and for the long haul.
I’m still at $35/hr for smaller job with timber sale proceeds after trucking being returned to the landowner. Larger jobs I try for a day rate of $180 (which barely cuts it at the end of the year), again returning sale proceeds to the landowner. Stumpage payment is the last resort for me, I have a hard time with competing with convential and mechanical loggers on this. I certainly ask for a minimum of stumpage. Won’t work with a forester who is taking a cut.
One of my goals is to be able to return each year to the same lot for more work.
Recently another logger and I teamed up for to help each other. We both currently work singles and he had a bunch of saw logs way to big for a single. With Simon’s help and advice we used his horse on the arch and mine up front in a tandem hitch. Nice way to go and it allows us to expand the service we can offer.
Hope this helps this discussion and would like to hear more.
Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

I think the numbers given by Rik are pretty close. I travel for logging job, putting a small camper in for myself and using what-ever for the horse. Its hard to really figure without seeing the lot. Can one log in Massachusetts without taking the state test for a logger? Perhaps “clearing” is considered a different activity.
I would also be interested in taking a look if you would forward more particulars.
Thanks….Jim Ostergard

[Jim Ostergard]

This is a great discussion! For us to stay in business we need to pay attention to the economics and it ain’t easy. I tend to follow somewhat Simon’s model. And each job is different. I use an hourly rate where I can which is $35/hour on smaller jobs. I also use a day rate on somewhat larger jobs ($180 day) based on a mim. of 6 hours a day. I have used this on a job this fall where I hauled in my camper and then hauled the horse in on Monday and worked the week before heading home which was 65 miles away. I gave the proceeds from the sale of the wood to the landowner is this case. It was very low grade pine pulp which I received $35/ton delivered in to the mill. This was a very slow job with the removal of very low grade wood. The landowner was however very committed to the improvement and long term health of the woodlot and was willing to cover the cost that exceded the wood sale by better than 100 %.

[Jim Ostergard]

It is very difficult to sometimes justify the learning curve and economics changing to animals as the motive power. I am a full time logger and used a farm tractor with Farmi winch and a small skidder for a number of years. Changed to a single horse and it has not been easy. Here in the mid-cost area of Maine most of the good wood is gone. Working on the traditional stumpage model with the low production is pretty much a losing proposition. Its a niche market and in the last few years I am seeing more possiblities from folks who are willing to place a low impact harvest over maximizing the dollar value of the extraction.
And then there are the animals!! My first horse after I got rid of the skidder and forwarder (learned a month later that horses don’t stack wood) and I had a hard time of if. I just was not at a place to understand him and get him to work. Gave him to a young fellow who wanted to cut wood in the winters and they do really well together. Right horse to the right person. My second and current horse was a rescue Belgian and after two years we have a good working relationship. Not being a, “horse person,” has made it a longer process but it has been worth it to have such a special relationship with a large animal. He is old, very powerful and enjoys our partnership.
Still a lot to work out and I hope to find financial justification for a partner for him this winter. For this month I’m running a skidder on a job up the coast to get some money ahead.
Keep trying, don’t get rid of the tractor….yet. The proper time for that will come.
JIm Ostergard

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