[near horse]

Hey,

Bringing us back around to the “Composting Andy” topic of this thread, I found some stuff in my saved “Favorites” that addresses farm composting, including carcasses. So for anyone that’s interested the link is below.

[HTML]http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/composting/com02s00.html[/HTML]

[near horse]

Hey Nick,

Never heard of Highfields Institute but looks pretty neat. I didn’t find the low tech turner you mentioned but did see the PTO driven style. Looks a lot like the hay tedder made by White Mfg (I think).

To all the compost gurus out there, what is or is there an optimal size for a compost pile? I’ve seen the huge long mounds that use massive and expensive turners. It seems that there would be a size trade-off where getting too big requires much E input to turn (so big that O2 is excluded down in the core). vs excessive heat loss from too small of a pile. Is there one that’s just right? “Goldilocks and the 3 Compost Piles”

[near horse]

Farming is a brutal “business”. A good quote from JFK that puts it into perspective “Farmers are the only businesses that sell wholesale, buy retail and pay the freight both ways.” Not to mention that we often don’t even get to set our own prices.

Bret4207 –

[at the height of winter and when prices for milk replacer are highest./QUOTE]

We feed replacer all year ’round and never see a seasonal shift in price. It’s always too high.

Had to put a mare down this winter. I drug her out in the back pasture and have been killing coyotes off her. I don’t know about the rest of the folks here but I’ll be darned if I’m going to sacrifice lambs, sheep, calves and small game to the coyotes if I can kill them off. That may not be PC for some of the people here but I intend to shoot or trap every one I can find.

1) You guys must have some pretty large coyotes in NY to kill calves. We have plenty around here and never have lost a calf to one. Feral dogs, yes. Coyotes, no.

2) You’re wasting your time trying to eliminate coyotes in your area. They are density-dependent breeders. Litter size increases at lower population levels. And hardly worth the cost of bullets.

Erika and others – it seems that aren’t many options to choose from in the agricultural business world.

If you want to be in the “game”, you have little option but follow the “rules” which do say “get big or get out” because they get price breaks based on scale. The other choice is foresake the “game” and then you don’t have to follow the rules. Unfortunately, if you’ve been in the game for awhile, it’s hard if not impossible to get out of it.

An example of a big dairy here – feeds 25 tons of cull onions per day to dry cows and heifers as part (~10%) of the ration. This guy is from a historical dairy family but sees this as THE way to stay in the game. But it’s not anything close to what his predecessors would call dairying.

Carl – how much do you guys pay for calf carcasses and offal for composting? I imagine you pay nothing. So then, the market value of the calf carcass is also $0. I know that you can possibly offset some fertilizer costs but that is pretty miniscule.

[near horse]

At our local Eco compost site, I’ve noticed that they have pipe (kind of like drain tile or plastic culvert maybe 8″ dia) running under the pile from one end to the other for helping with aeration (?). I don’t know if they turn those piles at all – never see a commercial turner there or if they actualy pump air through the pipes but the piles always seem to be actively putting off heat even during cold weather. Has anyone else seen this type of setup?

While this wouldn’t be something for making compost to “apply” to your fields or use for planting medium, I read a permaculture text that mentioned what I’d call trench composting – digging a trench, ditch, or what have you (garden plot) where you were going to add you finished compost and putting the raw stuff in the trench, cover and let it do its thing. Certainly much slower and has limitations but definitelt low input.

Robert – depending on what’s in your compost and how wet the initial material is could make a huge difference in how heavy and how much of a “bite” a blade could get on it. For example, straw bedding can be brutal and make mats that loader buckets struggle with.

I like the ideas using gravity as much as possible. What about builing the pile ontop of a series of platforms arranged in a grid (like a tic-tac-toe grid). Each “cell” of the grid can hinge allowing it to be tilted and dump its contents into the next “cell”. You could use animal power w/ a block and tackle setup .

Or could you design a sort of “low angle” version of a beaverslide used to put up loose hay?

Obviousl, I’m not an engineer or designer. Better stick w/ the pigs!

[near horse]

Howie,

It’s sad to hear that your friend got rid of his cows but subsidizing the grain market isn’t how most dairymen want to spend their efforts.

I’ve noticed (even through the classifieds ads mentioned by Erika http://www.leepub.com/classified%20files/samplewebpage) a lot of brokers looking for dairy cows (I assume for resale) as well as others looking for dead and downers for rendering. With milk prices in the toilet and money tight, how are some dairies able to justify adding more cows to their string? Is it just to slow the slide and perhaps weather the storm of low prices?

As I’ve mentioned before, its’ sad to see someone drop out of a business that they have a passion for (my assumption that your Amish friend liked dairying) while the “big guys” that are still going strong could just as well be producing Milk Duds instead of milk. It’s just a business for them.

[near horse]

they compete with higher quality trees, and leaving them to rot IS their highest and best use, but most people see that as wasteful.)

Throughout this discussion (and life) we are making value judgements. I understand what you’re saying but “higher quality” is in the eyes of the evaluator – it may differ if you want high dollar straight sawlogs vs something else (perhaps a woodpecker tree).

leaving them to rot IS their highest and best use

Again, we are making that determination. It is not inherent.

most likely not used to feed hungry people, but to be ground into mystery meat and sold to wasteful kids of busy parents at a fast food joint.

OUCH! Hungry people only eat steak, ribs and chops? I agree that it is irritating as h..l to see a waste of food while farm prices are crap for most of us. But we eat lots of weird things – rocky mtn oysters, tripe, menudo, tongue, sausage, chorizo … Why not ground meat?

I think I am on the same side of the argument as you are Carl just wanting people to recognize that it takes a lot of resources to create a calf and the return in nutrients is very small if you just kill it and compost it. They are really bad “green manure crops”.

[near horse]

I agree with Howie that to be a competative puller, you at least have to provide them with adequate if not top quality feed and housing. They are athletes. Certainly, shocking horses is reprehensible but these animals are draft animals and bred to pull.

I think the most abusive treatment is when folks have the “collector’s disease” in which they keep acquiring horses without the resources to take care of them. You end up with 20 starving horses standing in a barren pasture waiting to pass on.

[near horse]

You hate to have to build a covered structure for composting. Covered storage is usually at a premium in the northern clmates (never enough of it).

[near horse]

Interestingly, in beef cattle the heifers are less desirable (unless you want to keep them for breeding replacements) because they come into heat, ride each other and can cause injury (to the other cattle) as well as being less efficient in feed conversion. So producers will add MGA to the diet (help me out here becorson) to stop heifer cycling. Anyway, once again,

it’s a business design problem at base

.

The arguments about efficiency really become evident when you talk about 20, 30, 50,000 head feedlots where keeping animals on feed for 2 or 3 extra days costs tens of thousands of dollars. But the model for food production has been moving toward monoculture or specialization for quite a long time. As profit margins get smaller, the model says add animal units (look at dairies, hog units, poultry production ….) or get out. That just can’t work for us small guys so we need a different model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert MoonShadow
…….. Planning to use the bull calves as a nutrient source alone isn’t wise planning: at most, 70% of the nutrients are captured in finished compost… a net loss of a minimum of 30%……

Actually I have to say that this is probably a better return than the actual amount of the overall body that is utilized for meat.

The thing to remember is that you can eat meat but you can’t eat compost – directly:( That is similar to one of the arguments for having herbivorous animals in agriculture – they can harvest plant materials that are completely unavailable to us and convert them into a form that we can use.

Also, much of animal tissue is water (80% of muscle) so while returning nutrients back to your soil is laudible (and I wholeheartedly support it and do it), it is truly a small return vs. what was removed.

Any biomass you remove from your land removes nutrients – including hay, veggies whatever. So obviously there needs to be material added back.

In another post I’ll bring up an interesting book looking at one aspect of the history of modern ag.

Oh yeah, Robert –
For contact information, Joel Huesby has a website under Thundering Hooves Farm (or ranch) but I don’t think he operates as a mobile slaughtering unit. He has the semi and bought a butcher shop in Walla Walla for the cold storage and is doing some retail cuts there. Their operation includes turkeys and other species so he might be amenable to goats. If you haven’t already checked into it, the hispanic communities are usually screaming for goat – almost every time I go to a dairy the guys there (that know we have some goats) ask us to sell them some. You might be able to establish a small but reliable clientele down in Caldwell/Nampa/Ontario area.

[near horse]

There are many paradigms of modern ag that are just ridiculous.

In the beef industry for example – you can be docked for producing too large of an animal as well as too small. The ribeye has to 1) fit in the box 2) be of a size that person could consume it in one meal. So the larger continental breeds, Charolais, Simmental …., can be discounted because the ribeye was too big. On top of that, dairy breeds are discounted for various reasons but some include they don’t “finish” as rapidly, marble as well, carcass yield is lower…. THE best steaks I have had came from 4 yr old Jersey steers that would have normally been hamburger. The system is totally screwed up.

Just a note – as you probably know, there’s a price split paid to the producer on whether his animal grades “choice” or “select” with choice being up to $10/hundredweight higher. But when you go buy meat retail, there’s no difference in the cost of choice or select steaks – they’re the same (at the higher rate). Who gets that “extra” consumer cash? Not the grower.

For any that are interested, there’s a producer near Walla Walla, WA that has developed a mobile slaughter unit from a 40′ semi box that meets USDA standards. Just bring it to your place, walk the cattle right up …. His name is Joel Huesby of “Thundering Hooves Farm” so there’s some hope but we need to break out of the ADM/Cargill models.

[near horse]

Hi Aaron,

I know the anxiety of wanting to make sure you get “the perfect horse” and did the same thing myself. After a few years of looking and then backing off, I finally recognized that “either I do this or I don’t” – theoretical horses are always the best. They don’t eat anything, have perfect feet, heart of a giant and always want to do what ever I ask (even go get a beer when I need one!). But you can’t drive or work a theoretical horse. You can’t learn to be a better teamster with them either. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that having requirements for your new purchase is foolish – to the contrary. But I think you are on the right track. Working with experienced teams and teamsters. Listen to what they have to say and see the difference in how different animals work and behave. And, as I’m sure you are already doing, you start to formulate an idea of what type of horse suits you and your needs.

That said, I did a pretty risky and foolish thing. I bought my team over the internet from 1000 miles away:o. It was apparent that getting any experience w/ teamsters in my area wasn’t going to happen – none handy – so I just jumped in. And got lucky. My biggest concern (and probably yours as well) was the reliability and honesty of the seller NOT so much the horses. Also, in looking for a team you want something experienced in what you want to do (log, mow hay or do wagon rides …..).

After all this, it seems to me (and I’m a rookie too) that some of the conformational things that are covered in The Primer (non-crippling things) aren’t nearly as important as the horses dispositions and “workability”. Looking like a good horse doesn’t get the hay mowed. Mowing does.

Steve Bowers puts it best in his book “Farming with Horses”.
“If you get the right horses, putting them to work on your farm will make your days pleasant and rewarding. If you end up with the wrong kind of horses, your days will be filled with all sorts of stress and anxiety right frm the start.”
BUT
“If you happen to buy the wrong horses for the work you have, that doesn’t have to be the end of the story……. Horses that are too much trouble should be sold to a more suitable home or traded … for what you now know that you really need.” Hopefully that will put you at ease. It’s not a “one shot” deal.

Aaron – keep asking, looking, listening and learning and you’ll be fine. Good Luck.

[near horse]

Probably 15 years ago when Jersey calves were worthless a farmer near here took two with him in a calf box on his pickup to the sale barn. While he went in to watch the sale he put a sign on the calf box that said “Free Calves”. When he came back out he had 5 instead of 2!

Lucky he didn’t take them into the city instead of the sale barn. Then he would have come back to find his 2 calves there in the box but his pickup gone!

[near horse]

if you choose to raise/breed animals, then you choose to accept the responsibility for all your animals – not just the ones that can make you a profit.

Kudos to you, Robert!!! Killing healthy bull calves is not being a responsible herdsman. And neither is starving them. I really like your community level idea(s). To paraphrase Reagan:eek: “we don’t have a food shortage, we have a food distribution problem.” There are those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and those that wonder what happened.

In another month or so when things start to green up, lots of folks start looking for something to graze. The buyers who come around and buy all the bull calves when prices are good should have to forward contract those purchases so when times are lean, they can’t just walk away and leave the dairyman with kill ’em or starve ’em as the only options. This is another “problem” w/ the agribusiness model. People jump into an ag enterprise when it gets hot, end up flooding the market, drive prices down and then jump back out. Meanwhile, the guys that worked their butts off to build the market barely get a return before the prices drop. I’ve seen it with everything from hay to organic veggies and CSA’s.

[near horse]

To test it, I wore only a pair of cut-offs, hooked the system to a new & fully charged battery, and soaked the ground & layed down on the mud.

Robert – Oh, THAT’S what happened to you:). Just kiddin’. As Carl mentions a good charger (or charge) is THE key. Over time, an uncharged fence will end up w/ animals getting out.

We haven’t had much luck w/ electric netting. It’s a real bear to get the posts into the ground when it’s dried to cement consistancy.

I would like to hear about how you all do your corner posts on your permanent boundary fence. RR ties are common out here (not for the weak of back).

[near horse]

Erika,

Sorry – I just don’t buy it. Composting a calf gets very little of the nutrients back that you invested in generating that animal so that’s little consolation –

Be a little more creative than knock ’em in the head. Hell, put them in a pen out by the road w/ a sign “free calves”. Have another plan to deal with bull calves when prices are down. To me this is more about frustration than economics.

It is worth more to the farmer to keep the calf and use him to feed his crops than to get a bill for him.

I agree!!! So don’t take them to the sale.

You can argue that the farmer is also loosing money on his milk, but at least he is still recovering some of his costs of producing the milk. Having to pay $7 a calf to get rid of them and loose the nutrients is as useful as banging your head against the wall

I think losing money on your milk is still banging your head against the wall. And paying $7 to get rid of a calf might seem pretty insignificant in comparison. Break even milk prices (whatever that means) are around $16 per hundred weight – at that point you’re doing it for free. Prices are near that right now and headed down. I don’t know if you’re aware but pouring down the drain is exactly what dairymen did to protest low milk prices back in the 30’s? and resulted in the current subsidized milk pricing system we see today.

[Author]

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