[near horse]

so teach us…..don’t dish us

And Jason, I think the word you were looking for is “dis”;)

[near horse]

Thank you guys once again for your feedback.

[near horse]

Hi Bess,

Did your friends ever try disconnecting the electricity (either just to the fence or even turn it off for a bit at the service panel) to test the stray voltage idea?

[near horse]

I know that some relief agencies have helped setup camel dairy cooperatives in Africa. Pretty versatile creatures as someone already said.

For Sat night viewing check out “The Weeping Camel”.

Also, I think that water buffalo used in SE Asia (and other places) are also guided using a ring or peg through the nostril with “reins” attached.

Last, check out how mahouts guide elephants (with their feet on the elephant’s shoulders – I think it’s on the shoulder but maybe it’s behind the ear). Pretty cool. Those things are the ultimate logging unit – besides skidding logs they can load the truck for you:)

[near horse]

Sorry if the last post seems to end abruptly – I accidently sent it before I was ready. So add on to the last post:

I’m not sure at what point or how to reinforce the “This is ME, I am Safe” concept at that point.

[near horse]

2) When I expect the horse to stand, I place them where I want them, use words like WHOA, and body language based on the communication that I have been developing from day one. I expect them to stay, but am constantly aware that they may test out their own initiative. When/if they move, I simply move them back. In the case of putting on harness accessories, I will approach them with it (bit, bridle, collar, etc.) but never apply it until they remain still. Repetition and patience. I have to remind myself that there is no such thing as “sort of patient”. When they move I don’t take it personally, they are not “breaking” the rules, just asserting their own initiative. This is MY gig, MY initiative, so I reaffirm that. Sometimes, less these days, I have to go back a step or two and work on other areas where they have consistently accepted my initiative. If you want them to stand, you may be wanting to go get wood out, but you have to be willing to respond to the animal when they “speak” to you, saying “I need help with this standing thing”.

Carl – Thank you! This is the stuff I (we) are looking for.

Our biggest challenges as teamsters is managing our own expectations

Or even identifying expectations. For new teamsters the quandry can be “what is reasonable to expect from this horse at this time”

Let me use a recent example. I was working with each of my horses individually (one in the pasture while the other was with me). We just went over some basic stuff – giving me my space, loose leading, standing untied …
They each did fine until we walked down the road out of sight – then they started to get anxious (they are kind of herd bound). The partner was nickering while the one in hand was having trouble paying attention to me. So, what should I have done?
call it good and head back to the herd.
continue onward competing for attention
refocus the horse on me (send energy through lead rope, yield his hindquarters …) then continue

[near horse]

Hi –

It’s a new day. I too must apologize, particularly to you Donn. You have been nothing short of honest, polite and professional in your posts and I have been very happy to hear what you have to say. For example:

This would be enough if the horses were like cars, but they are not. We need to add to this basic beginning some tools to prepare the teamster for taking the lead.

Truly very well said.

Highway – While I don’t want to put words in your mouth, I think you and I might be in the same boat (or at least the same pond). While we don’t come from generations of horse folks, we do have experience with and know how to work with, train and behave regarding animals in general. In other words, we do recognize and appreciate signalsand responses presented to us by various species. We’re not some “city-folk idiots” that think food comes from Safeway. That said, with horses there seems to be. as J-L says

more than one way to skin this cat.

With time being one of the more limiting resources for most of us, new teamsters can ill afford to attend the school of hard knocks. We (or at least I) would like to be headed in the right direction at least. Remember, we too are trying to get into the field or woods and work with and enjoy our horses. That’s where we want to go. Safely and confidently.

Jen – you also throw in a good point that can also be used to address many issues.

get out and DO something with your horse.

However, sometimes the situation is not perfect… There will be no one way to handle a horse that needs retraining, or has little foundation for what ever reason. These can be BIG horses, with BIG energy and there are gonna be times when you need to do what it takes to get them into the program.

What does that mean – do what it takes? I know it depends on the situation but give me a hypothetical. Perhaps, address highway’s issue

when I work my Haflinger for two weeks with no apparent issues and the next time I go to the pasture to put the harness on he decides to walk away from me and it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

I do appreciate ALL of your responses (Carl, J-L, Donn, plowboy, Jen) and DO NOT want to be a pain the A– niggling every little comment but I want this to work and will do whatever it takes. Thank you for your patience:)

As an aside regarding what animals respond to and what they desire, back in the 90’s our local university was doing some research with coyotes and had 6 to 10 captive ones on campus. Late one night, some folks from ALF “attacked” the facility and released the coyotes to go out and “live free”. By around 10 the next morning the majority of these animals were back at the facility door waiting for breakfast. Sort of redefines “Animal Welfare” 🙂

[near horse]

Excuse me if I sound “pissy” but my frustration is showing:o

Listen to the questions we get from Geoff, Highway, and others. I think even though their driving skills are still new, what folks lack to some extent is a sound relationship with the horses. The relationship I am talking about is one specifically suited to farm work.

I appreciate your response and I can’t speak for other newer teamsters but for me THE underlying issue is the confidence that what I am doing is the right way to achieve the objective at hand – be it standing, dropping the head, yielding …. AND what to do when an undesirable behavior pops up during work. The answer often seems to be “that shouldn’t happen….” or “if he/she was properly trained in ground manners….” That’s all good and well but the question still remains “What now?”

In the mean time they wonder why their horses do this, or that, or some other thing. I suggest they take the time to start learning some basic training skills. It will be time well spent.

This is part of the problem – in trying to get some basic training information (what should I do when … happens), and I’m talking concrete answers, we often get nebulous vagueties that leave us at a loss for the next step to take.

Or there are so many conflicting and sometimes contradictory responses that you just …..aaargh.

To “cool my jets” I just read an article from http://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/mistake1.html
“PUTTING ERRORS INTO PERSPECTIVE”. I felt better:)

For many people this is difficult by region or by ability to make the right contacts. In some areas of the country there aren’t teamsters for hundreds of miles. In other parts there may be one a couple miles away that you aren’t aware of.

Plowboy,this hits the nail on the head. AND, I’d like to add just because someone near you has drafts and works them doesn’t mean they are someone you should emulate. “There’s a lot of competition among the knuckleheads.”

Lastly, Manesntails – before you come flying into a post w/ guns blazing, next time try using the same understanding on humans that you utilize on horses. Otherwise, you’re just Gyp training us.:mad:

[near horse]

Ouch! Manesntails what are you responding to?:confused:

[near horse]

Historically when folks out here in the Inland Northwest were still using stationary threshing machines to harvest wheat, they would overwinter their horses on the straw stacks left over from threshing. Apparently, the threshing units weren’t very efficient and put a lot of grain out into the straw so there was more to it than just straw. Still seems like pretty slim pickings to me but I guess you measured success by how many of them made it through winter. :confused:

[near horse]

I think kiwiloggr is feeding palm kernel – the pressed meal that’s left after the palm oil (or most of it) is extracted. Is that correct?

In the US, the equivalent might be SBM soybean meal, canola meal, sunflower meal…. any other oilseed meals. They would usually be fed as ration components in dairies to boost protein levels more than energy since most of the oil has been extracted.

[near horse]

I have a question regarding “getting your horses to do what you want”. Specifically, what happens (what do you do or should I do) when they do something I don’t want. For example, decidng to walk off before I tell them to or changing gait without my request. I usually stop the whole thing (whoa), then restart. Is that enough?

It’s also difficult to know when they’re “jerking your chain” and when they’re not. I would really like my guys to stand while being harnessed but right now it’s tie them up and sometimes they even want to dance some. I persist w/o losing my cool and get them harnessed up but am I “allowing” misbehavior or is the fact that they don’t “win” enough reinforcement. Just trying to do the right thing – these are relatively young horses (about 5-6 yrs).

As an old farmer in our area told me after I snapped the axle in the grain truck roaring up a steep hill in the field “Nothing ever happens to ya if ya don’t do nothin'”. Makes you feel a little better about screwing up. And a bit more courageous.

[near horse]

Robert,

I’ll try to be at SFJ this year as well but, as I mentioned before, there are about 1 million other things all pulling at me at that exact same time.

Forgot to mention that there are some folks doing some serious draft farming/marketing about due west of you (other side of Hell’s Canyon though :() If I remember right, their last name is Mader in Halfway, OR. They usually are at SFJ and are willing to help new folks – seemed like good people. In fact, I need to get in contact with them as well.

The dilemma of how heavy to build the cart if you want to pull a few things and haul wood can be challenging. Here’s a thought though – Make yourself a light cart comfortable for your jack and versatile enough to hitch to what you’d like. Then, for in woods action, use a “scoot” (probably not the right term) – kind of looks like the front half of a snowshoe made of pipe. Wrap chain around log and scoot (on its side at this point), have your jack step up and that will roll the log onto scoot. Chain on and go. Got this from G. Caudell’s video “Horse Logging Basics” which also shows his walking beam setup. Unfortunately you will have to be walking but it is pretty low tech, effective, maneuverable, good for a single animal ….. Then when the time comes to upgrade (2 animals etc) you can build what you need. AND you’ll have a better idea of what might work and what doesn’t.

Hindsight is always so much clearer than foresight – but it’s less painful if you don’t have too much time and money invested.

Good luck – maybe see you in Madras. I’ll be the guy drooling 🙂

[near horse]

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

I’ve probably treated close to 400 calves with diarrhea, often associated w/ cryptosporidium. We worked our way through every possible combination of treatment, many w/ veterinary consultation (large animal vets at local vet school). In the end, they had to agree that feeding milk to calves w/ irritated guts and diarrhea was giving us trouble. The calves that we lost or had to use IV bicarb were those that were on full milk diets.

Remember – vets are not usually trained as nutritionists. What is food but an amalgamation of nutrients. Electrolyte solutions are providing a readily available energy source (the sugar) and while you won’t see growth, they do quite well – not just barely alive for a day or so. Also, I don’t see how the electrolyte is causing the problem with the milk.

starvation is not an option to reduce the degree of diarrhoea.

Feeding electrolytes is not starving the animal. Also, the trouble we see with feeding milk is slowing or stasis of gut motility rapidly leading to a bloating situation.

Anyway – it’s like chiropractics. Do what works for you.:)

[near horse]

Super! Thanks horsepower! I am indebted.:)

All the best.

Geoff

[Author]

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