[OldKat]

Gee, what a nice cart. You are a craftsman for sure. That is an excellently executed project.

[OldKat]

@jac 14975 wrote:

An interesting discussion guys. Deep compaction ? Is this problem only a tractor based issue and is it possible to compact the soil next to the subsoil while still having the surface apparantly ok.. I have read in various farming mags over here that the use of liquid slurry changes the soil structure and makes it greasy for want of a better word but thats a surface problem. It would be good to find two farmer neighbours.. one a modern tractor based farmer and his neighbour working a historicaly horse based farm and compare soil structure. Do horses or cattle grazing cause deep compaction or is it just the surface that gets pounded ? I’ve often wondered what does most damage.. a tractor with wide tyres that weighs 8 or 9 tons but a pounds/square ins of 26 or a horse with a much higher poundage/square ins…I have heard a figure of 56… but less all up weight ? Is the horses weight only tranfered so far into the ground ?
John

John et al,

I know an Amish produce farmer in South Texas that told me a couple of years ago that he owns about 115 acres. He bought it sometime after 1999 when his community relocated from Tennessee. He said that at the time, exactly 2 years ago, that he was farming about 12 acres of the place with his horses; the other roughly 100 acres was leased out to a conventional farmer who grew corn, milo and cotton in rotation. He said that each year he adds about an acre or two to his production by cutting back on what he leases out.

I asked him what differences he could see in the land that he had been farming with his horses and that the other guy had been farming with his tractor. He said that the land that was farmed with tractors was so hard that he had to apply manure and compost on it for about a year before he could even get it to break. He uses a single bottom moldboard to break this land. I never saw him breaking any new land, so I don’t know how many horses he put on the plow. He had 3 Belgians, but his dad has probably a dozen Percherons so horsepower probably isn’t an issue.

He said that after about three years of adding manure and compost the land “mellows out” enough that subsequent tillage is with a disc plow. He said it takes about 3 to 5 years for the land to get as mellow and as productive as what he was already farming. The soil is a coastal prairie clayish loam, semi-arid climate. He irrigates from a deep well using a submersible pump powered by a diesel engine.

[OldKat]

From Kevin’s excellent post, above;

Health care is so much more than a medical issue, it is rather a social economic issue. It is fundamentally a subject dealing with how a person or family applies their hopes, goals and dreams in a practical manner in their community. The “practical manner” I write about is often times manifested through work, a huge neccessary part of all our lives. King Solomon stated that their is nothing better than for a man to enjoy his work. I would add, and maybe Solomon meant between the lines, that it is also great to be around people who enjoy their work!
Far too often when asking my peers questions about where they would like to be in 2, 5, 10 years they state their dreams, and then backpeddle with excuses why it isn’t feasible to follow those dreams immediately;
“I’d quit my job, but, the benefits”
“My wife would love to stay home with our children, but my work has no benefits and hers does”
“Only 6 more years and I am fully vested in my pension, THEN, I’m gonna….”
etc. etc.

I guess each person’s case is different, but I have heard those exact same sentiments expressed by countless others. Some may be using it as a cop out, for others it is no doubt a major factor in not wanting to rock the boat. Quite honestly, I couldn’t afford to pay health insurance premiums as an individual. As a matter of fact, that is EXACTLY why I quit teaching high school agriculture some 29 years ago and went to work in private industry … for the “benefits”, that being a pension plan and health insurance (plus twice the money). I have been real fortunate to work for some good companies, and have worked with some really fine people over those 29 years. That said, I am not so sure that I wouldn’t have enjoyed teaching ag a whole lot more. So yes, it is something that I would like to see resolved so that aspect is not a stumbling block to those that would like to do something other than what they are doing for a living.

In fact there is a guy that I work with that retired at age 57 some 8 years ago. Guess what? About 10 or 12 months ago he showed back up on the payroll. His stated reason for returning to work? “I couldn’t afford to be without health insurance, and I couldn’t afford to buy it on my own”. That would be my worse nightmare. Not that I hate working here, it is just that when I leave I don’t want to be drawn back by the golden handcuffs of “benefits” be they insurance, pension plan or whatever.

I am not against health insurance reform; Lord knows it is sorely needed. I am against what is being currently proposed. Hopefully the message that was sent by the voters of Massachusetts will wake up everyone in congress and now they can get about addressing this thing in an objective, bi-partisan manner as they should have done a year ago.

[OldKat]

@blue80 14955 wrote:

28 yrs ago I tagged around the counties doing farm calls with my father, a veterinarian. Even then, there were several fatherless family units existing due to suicide, and I remember some of them took their life in the barn for their families to find, I have never understood why.

I think it is important to remember how little we know of other strangers circumstances, and be vigilant not to take their tragedy as ammunition for our own agendas.

I wish that we may all have a burning desire to sincerely get to know our neighbours’ hopes, fears, and dreams in a loving way that grows and nurtures community. To often we concentrate on the weather, the crops, the grandkids; we all have a little pain and hurt, it’s important to bear each others burdens, maybe less of this would happen. Like that new country song, “the call”

It’s the ones left behind who suffer.
Our thoughts and prayers are with this family,

Kevin

Well said Kevin. I agree with your whole post, especially the part about “I think it is important to remember how little we know of other strangers circumstances, …”. Very well spoken indeed.

[OldKat]

@danb 14947 wrote:

The problem with the health care plan as it is being proposed is it does nothing to bring down health care costs. We do not have a health care problem in this country; we have the best health care in the world. What we have is a health cost problem. And mandating that everyone must have health care insurance without dealing with cost will only make yet another super expensive, over regulated government program that we can’t afford. If health costs were brought down to a reasonable level, more people would be able to afford insurance without big brother’s help. You cannot find one instance in the history of the US when the government interfered with what was once done privately and made it run better. Don’t expect better here.

At the risk of sounding “anti-government” (I am not) let me say that you have nailed it. If you have ever seen those charts that show medical inflation versus general inflation it is real interesting to see that they tracked each other turn for turn up until the the mid 1960’s, then medical inflation takes off. What happened? Why did medical costs suddenly uncouple from the overall rate of inflation? Simple: The US government got involved in the process with a little program called “Medicare”.

The more involved in the process that they have been since then, the more out of hand costs have gotten. Don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself.

[OldKat]

@near horse 14939 wrote:

My opinion is that the tail is wagging the dog here. Corporate greed and profit are determining government policy. “If you don’t do such and such, we’ll break you.” Elected officials have to worry about getting re-elected and a well-funded disinformation campaign can wipe-out even the most forthright individual – not so with CEO’s. Many of them and their boards of directors aren’t even responsive to their own shareholders!

So what are you supposed to do as an elected official when you’re essentially held hostage by AIG, GM or whomever? Let them fail and we end up with even more catastrophic unemployment of average middle class Americans that did nothing to deserve it. Bail them out and reward them for corruption and bad management. Either way, as an elected official, you’re going to look bad.

I truly believe that corporations – those “too big to fail” – are dictating what we’re getting from our government.

So in the end Mark, you are right – few benefit and many pay. But I would rather try to push that benefit toward those with nothing rather than to those who already have everything.

The frustration comes from knowing we’re being screwed over by corporate greed and not being able to do a damn thing about it. One example – GoldmanSachs handed out bonuses equal to the total amount of money donated by the American public to provide aid to Haiti – 100 million dollars. That’s just contemptable!

No one is worth 1 million dollars per year, let alone have that added to your salary! A million dollars is $114/hr for every hour you exist during that year – asleep, in the shower, on the toilet ….

Converted to payment for a “normal” work schedule – $480/hr For that rate, at least do a better job fooling me!!

See this is where I disagree with you my good and loyal friend. May I? Thank you (in advance).

You see, I don’t think any organization is too big or too important to fail. I would have let them go down the drain IN A HEARTBEAT. You know why I believe that was not allowed to happen? I think it was because actions of our government had dictated that these banks “make it happen” with loans that had NO BUSINESS BEING MADE, to people that DID NOT QUALIFY. When it all blew up there were those in both political parties that had finger prints all over this crappy deal and they didn’t want this sordid fact brought to the light of day. In short it was easier and more expedient to sell you and me down the river than to own up to the fact that officials of our government, some elected, some appointed not only allowed this crisies to happen, they actively orchestrated it. They didn’t want anybody at any of these banks pointing this dirty little secret out, thus the big pay off.

BTW: The only person that I remember saying “this crap is CRAZY” while it was going on was Senator McCain. I am not a McCain supporter, never cared for him. However, to his credit he did predict that the “liars loans” were going to bite us in the, well, should we say “assets” long before anyone else seemed to understand what was going on.

[OldKat]

Wow Ixy, you have sure opened a can of worms here. One which I don’t intend to wade too far into … that said, let me give you a little insight into some of the opposition to this concept of universal care (which many, if not most would consider to be a good thing). There are so many dynamics to this issue that there is no way I will touch on them all, but here is just a sampling of the issues in play.

First off, it is a de facto currently available service. By US federal law, no health care provider can legally turn away persons seeking health care. Hospitals in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, as well as in many other states are struggling to keep their heads above water as waves of illegal immigrants show up in the emergency rooms for anything from the common cold to injuries to term pregnancies. Not only illegal aliens, but legal ones and citizens as well. Who do you think foots the bill for this “free” health care? If you guessed anything other than the tax payer you would be wrong. The fact that “universal” coverage would NOT be denied to illegal aliens in many versions of the health care bills being bandied about was a MAJOR turnoff to a lot of folks who would have likely other wise supported it. Second issue is abortion. Whether you support or are against abortion is not the point; fact is many people are violently opposed to the idea that their tax dollars would be confiscated to pay for a process that they are personally opposed to. Then there was the issue of the hammer being brought down on people; “YOU WILL SIGN UP FOR THIS OR ELSE …” (the or else being to pay a fine). While that sort of thing may go over in Great Britain, or in other parts of Europe, we fought and won a war of independence from your country over far less. Not to mention that this provision would be strictly unconstitutional and therefore unenforceable.

There are other factors too, such as the fact that there is NO mention of tort reform in the pending bill worries many people. There being widespread recognition of the fact that medical lawsuits (many frivolous) contribute greatly to surging costs of health care over here. The fact that people that have health care would be taxed up to 40% of the value of that policy in order to pay for the people who currently don’t have coverage, UNLESS they happen to belong to a union that supported President Obama’s campaign (in which case they get a 10 year waiver), etc, etc, etc.

But where they process REALLY jumped the track is that when this first came up our administration promised “open dialogue”, bi-partisan participation (i.e. both major parties inputting ideas) and on AT LEAST 8 different occasions then presidential candidate Obama stated the “entire process would be covered by C-Span” (which, if you don’t know is cable television station that covers the political process from a fairly non-partisan perspective). Well guess what? There was little or no open dialogue, but rather a bunch of secret meetings that were only attended by the political party in power. The other political party was completely frozen out of the process, so we will never know IF they had anything constructive to add or not. Finally the C-Span thing did NOT happen. In short, “The Change You Can Believe In” campaign slogan that excited many people was not honored.

In many ways this was not President Obama’s fault, as this process was being managed (as it should be) by the legislative branch of our government. Problem being that both houses of that branch are over-whelming controlled by the same political party that he represents. So the fact that it felt like this was being run down peoples throats not only rubbed the other political party the wrong way (which was to be expected in a way), but it also alienated most independents such as my self. You may not understand this but neither political party in our country can get elected without us “independents”; with about 36 to 37% of voters self identifying as Democrats (currently in power) and about 30 to 32% self identifying as Republicans neither party can act arrogantly without paying for in the polling place. The Republicans learned this the hard way in 2006 and 2008. I have a feeling the Democrats are going to learn the same in 2010.

Ixy, last summer many independent, open minded people attended town hall meetings across the breath and width of our country to hear our elected officials explain what they were trying to do with the health care bill. In many cases these were people that had no issue with universal health care being provided, they just wanted to know WHAT EXACTLY are we getting here? A reasonable question I believe. You know what we largely got? A message to “Sit down and shut up; WE are IN CONTROL HERE”. That played out over and over again and it infuriated many people, including MANY that voted for President Obama. To top it all off, when several of these people began to organize in resistance to what they saw as a strong-armed tactic to cram this stinker down their throats they were labeled in the main stream media and by many of the leaders of the Democratic party as “kooks”, “extremists” & “weirdo’s”. You know me from this board. Do I strike you as a kook, extremist or weirdo? I hope not.

So bottom line here, much of the resistance to what is being proposed is to the WAY it has been handled. Sure there are those that are flat out opposed to the idea of universal coverage, but they could be brought around in a REASONABLE manner. Trying to hammer them over the head isn’t working all that well. Neither is attacking their intelligence or their character. Not sure what your media is reporting, but from what little I know of your media it is just about as biased and of dubious nature as ours is, so keep doing what you are doing … asking and listening.

[OldKat]

bivol wrote:

i mean, a good person is a good person no matter the nationality, and a bad one will stay a bad one no matter its nation.

Well said my friend.

Sounds like your native language tends to make compound words out of individual words, somewhat like the Germans do. What is the word for a “nun” anyway?

[OldKat]

@Matthew 14380 wrote:

The more posts I read about my initial thread the more I feel I chose the wrong words to decribe these men. Even though I do not know them personaly and have never met them I see their names and faces and what they have acomplished and am shure they did not do it for any one but themselves and familys. I still have a great admiration for these men, what they do how they make a living and the skill and knowladge they possess. We all have mentors and people we look up to no matter how old we are and I am shure even these men have people they look up to. When I was younger I met a old timer from Maine who dropped out of school when he was 15. This man made his living until his death with horses. He never had any money and is clothes, trucks and harness were on borrowed time, but I thought this man walked on water. This old man who walked slow, was frail and in pain from a hard life and athritis was my hero. Thair was no one else I wanted to be like. He taught me so much, I would go to picnics with 100 people and you would find me talking to this old man takeing in his every word. Im shure we can all relate to some one like this at one time in our lives. I should re title this post GREAT MENTORS. Besides you cant pull a horse trailer to good with a limo.

That is kind of what I thought when you made your initial post, but it was your thread so I wasn’t going to be the one to bring it up. I think the celebrity part MAY apply, at least to those people that are interested in the sort of subjects that come up on this forum. However I suspect that folks like Carl, Jason, Lynn Miller, Doc Hammil and others who have been visible in the animal powered circles are probably content to let their work speak for them, and not look so much to the adoration the public may seek to heap upon them.

The Hollywood part? That is for sure a misfit. I never have been inclined to put much stock in what those people have to say and the more I watch their actions and reactions the more I feel that, for the most part, those are the biggest bunch of phonies and narcissists that ever existed. Surely not in any fashion reflective of the folks on this site and in the draft animal powered industries that many of us have come to admire.

Still, your point is well taken; this site is fortunate enough to be frequented by some solid folks, who have some real world, hands on experience in the things that we are interested in. It may have been said before on another thread, but it bears repeating; with so many of the old time mentors, like your friend in Worchester, (rhymes with “rooster”) no longer around this place is a good option to go get some cyber mentoring from some folks who know of what they speak. I am tickled to have the opportunity to learn what they have to say.

[OldKat]

@Matthew 14361 wrote:

I was looking for some advice about fencing. I have fenced a two acre pasture using cedar posts and barbed wire. I want to keep beef cows and draft horses and may be a pony for my kids. Some people say barbed wire is the worst stuff you could have around animals. I lived on a farm that was all barbed wire and we had draft horses and cows and never had a problem. Is barbed wire OK or were we lucky no animals got hurt? Anouther question is I used high tensile barbed wire it seemes thin but it is supposed to be strong. Is this wire any good?

I have a lot that is not a whole lot bigger than that; which adjoins another couple of acres that belongs to another guy, but which I use. I have found that mesh field fence works best for me, but it is reinforced on the top with barbed wire to keep the horses from leaning over it and pushing it toward the ground. Otherwise they will “walk” it down trying to get that tasty morsel that is always growing just on the other side of the fence. It is also reinforced with high tensile electric fence, which stands off from the fence some 5 or 6″ and is about the same distance from the top. This further discourages any effort to graze over the top, AND keeps them off the barbed wire.

I too have used barbed wire for horses on pasture (larger pastures, like 20 or more acres per field). I don’t particullarly like using it for horses, but cannot say that it has ever actually caused me a problem. THE POTENTIAL is there never-the-less.

I have also used it for part of the fenceline on smaller lots like you are describing. I never had a problem with it, but was always worried that I would. I would not do it that way again, personally. Guess it depends on how well you can sleep at night without wondering if your horses are down there slicing and dicing themselves on the barbed wire.

I like high tensile electric fence wire, but would never use it around horses unless it was simply reinforcing a more visible fence such as I am doing. One single strand of it on T posts is darned near invisible until you get right up on it and I wouldn’t trust it for use with any horse no matter how calm they are. Maybe if it is in multiple strands and with wide electric tape as a visible barrier at the top, but even that would make me nervous.

High tensile barbed wire; aka known as Gaucho wire. I know people that think it is the premium wire out there. I will not use it. It is harder to work with when new. Darned near impossible to work with when it is used. I know a local guy that pronounces it “Gotcha” wire. I use to think that was because he didn’t know how to say it correctly. After having “tried” to patch fences that have that stuff installed, I now think he is onto something. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt the hardest crap that I have ever had the misfortune of working around. I have been told that it will easily outlast regular barbed wire, if that is important to you.

Just my 2 cents.

[OldKat]

@Matthew 14359 wrote:

There was a old farmer that lived by me. His barn was without electricity and he milked with a lantern. Someone installed him a row of single lights so he could see better when he milked. When the guy asked him how he liked the lights he said (they are no dam good you still need the lantern to see to screw the light bulb in.) Apparently the old guy thought you just moved the bulb around insted of putting one in each light.

In parts of the rural south electricity wasn’t commonly available until well after World war II, maybe that was the case elsewhere as well …I don’t know. One of my friends, who is about 15 years older than me tells the story that when she was kid in Southwest Texas, down on the Mexican border the rural co-op didn’t have all their distribution lines up and running until about 1949 or ’50. She said she vividly remembers an old lady sitting in her parents living room extolling the virtues of the “lectricity” that was being installed at that very time and telling her mom to hang on to any burned out light bulbs. When questioned as to why you should keep a burned out bulb she said; “Whale (local pronounciation of “well”), to use in your empty sockets. You NEVER want to have an empty socket, because if you do your ‘lectricity may fall out“. I am having that problem with my hair, but never experienced it with “lectricity”. 😮

[OldKat]

Good points, and worth remembering. You are right, in a situation where we are READING what some says rather than LISTENING to them in person, over the phone, etc you can’t pick up on those voice inflections, nuances in speach pattern etc to discern what the intent was.

Fortunately, on this site there are very few people that go out of their way to be obnoxious about their point of view. Some of the most considerate people I have ever had the pleasure of reading post regularly on this site, and I mean that sincerely.

[OldKat]

@bivol 13402 wrote:

nice plowing, Charly!

oxnun, i haven’t forgot, i’ll fix it round Christmass, sorry for taking so long!

anyway, a few videos:
turkey, logging with buffaloes (RARE):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBoL_Op0MOQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4AHeK7eEDI&feature=related

shoeing; a nice technique of getting oxen to the ground
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0UgmN9dv8&NR=1

from france:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOiZMMBYeJc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdZntZzzrmc&feature=related

double hitch with a head yoke:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCSIk9v9CNU&feature=related

from Reunion:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSILz4V8Zw&feature=related

Aren’t those tan colored oxen in the video’s from France some beautiful animals? Wow, I’d LOVE to have team that looked like that and I am not even an oxen guy!

[OldKat]

@CharlyBonifaz 13403 wrote:

:D:D
while looking at yours, I found these multiple team hitches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SHpNBTKmbU&feature=related
some of these cattle (beginning at 1.19) look rather tall, any idea what breed they are?

Just a guess here, but a semi-educated one; Gyr (Gir) X Holstein. The Gyr influence I am pretty sure of because of the shape of the horns, almost water buffalo looking and the domed forehead on some of the oxen. The dark color tells me that they are crossed with something that put the black to rusty red-black hide on them. The small patches of white with the darker body says Holstein.

That and I know that the Girolando (5/8 Holstein X 3/8 Gyr) is popular in South America. I suspect most of the animals shown in this video that are hitched to the two wheeled carts are either Gyr X Holstein F-1’s, Girolander, a back cross of the two or a third breed crossed on an Gyr x Holstein F-1 or a Girolander. Close as I can get from here. 🙂

[OldKat]

@J-L 13279 wrote:

Well it’s winter in Wyoming,
and the gentle breezes blow,
70 miles an hour
when its 25 below.
Oh how I love Wyoming,
when the snow is up to your butt.
You take a breath of winter air,
and your nose freezes shut.
Yes, the weather here is wonderful,
so I guess I’ll hang around.
I could never leave Wyoming,
because my ass is froze to the ground!
(Author unknown)

J-L,

When I was in high school I had a homeroom teacher named Mr. Schultz. After our sophomore year he quit teaching to move to Wyoming to run what I took at the time to be sort of fishing/hunting lodge type of thing that his in-laws owned. Much later I learned that it was actually more of a restaurant.

Lost track of him for about 15 or 16 years after that, but when we moved to the town where we now live there he was as the principal at the school where my wife was teaching. Took me about a year or so to figure out who he was, but when I finally did I asked him “What happened to Wyoming? I thought you were all excited about moving up there”

He sort of laughed and said; “Oh it is a beautiful and wonderful place, but it wasn’t for me … it is too darn cold. I was all right with it until one night when I closed down the restaurant and got in my car to leave, but couldn’t; it was frozen to the parking lot!” After we both laughed about that for a little while he said; “I told my wife that night that when my car can roll so am I, you are welcome to go with me or stay here …your call!” He made it clear that really loved going up there IN THE SUMMER, and continued to do so until his in-laws passed away. However, he said he never went back in the winter. I guess rugged individuals aren’t as plentiful where I live as where you live, ’cause quite frankly I don’t think I would deal real well with those kinds of conditions either!

[Author]

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