[OldKat]

@boulami 7900 wrote:

Hi everybody,
this is one interesting thread, not being able to read it all at one time, I finaly finished reading all of it today. Dreaming of being in evryone’s shoes one day, makes me realise that I have quite the task in front of me. I will certainly digest everything that has been said. I am learning from every one of you, love to hear about all your experiences, but know that I will have to go through my own. I love looking at pictures that you ad to your post they complement what you are trying to say or explain.

Carl did any kind of distraction or situation let you be in a sort of panic where the horses didn’t or did freak out? Or anybody else gone through for that matter? I’ve been reading Maurice Telleen’s book, some parts more than once, gives me good info, but certainly not the hands on experience that I will have to go and get.

Being a Phy. Ed. teacher and trying to show kids how to do basic things like throwing and catching a ball, needs patience, understanding and observation of the mecanics of the said movement. So I have some understanding of what I am up against. After 30 some years in a gym I don’t consider myself the expert but a person of experience and often enough some rookie will give me great idea of what to do in some instances.

Maybe some knucklehead will give me an idea of what to do with my horse or what not to do, but it will always be up to me to decide how I will put in into practice in my own situation. I am lucky to have somebody close by that has a team of Clydes and ponies and expect to go get some experience there. I have the skidoo trail and ATV trail, crossing my property, not always in use, so I have a trail to use. We have an Agriculture Fair close by in Ste Marie de Kent, Kent county N.B. They have a horse pull, a team, four,six,eight in hand driving competition, judging of horses, cattle. That is all at the end of august.

Being far from each other this community brings every one of us closer together.

Mike

I didn’t know that the word had gotten out on me!😉

[OldKat]

@goodcompanion 7879 wrote:

You can use legumes to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere. It’s also of course found in animal wastes. Easily lost and easily replaced, with the help of friendly carbon to keep it stable in organic compounds. In that sense you can lose it and create it all the time, once you get the knack of it.

If I remember my soil science, P and K are both much harder to replace once lost. Other than mining them (phosphates and potash) I think both can be derived from oceanic sources, such as kelp.

That is in line with what I recall of the subject. I did read recently where you can get a bump in your soil K by burning off grasses and weeds that are standing dead (winter kill, etc). Not sure though if the total K available would be any more than if you turned those same plant materials under, or composted them and applied to the soil. I would think you would still just be recycling what is already there.

[OldKat]

@Rod 7892 wrote:

I usually do not leave the halters on but that day I was loading and sifting furnace ash into the dump cart and the oxen had to stand for a long time while I did it. The halters allowed me to tie them up while I was working. Hopefully I can get to the place where they will stand for an hour while I do stuff like that be we are not there yet.

BTW I used the dump cart in the dump mode for the first time that day dumping a load of manure then a load of wood ashes at my garden. The dump worked perfect. I also have used it for hauling sap and sugaring supplies. It’s real handy.

I had seen the pictures of the dump cart that you had posted. Without taking this thread down a “rabbit trail” off the main subject, is that a design that you came up with? Looks slick, realy well designed.

[OldKat]

@goodcompanion 7867 wrote:

A link to Vermont Public Radio’s program Vermont Edition broadcast today, discussing the trend towards smaller farms and increasing backyard food production.

http://www.vpr.net/flash/audio_player/audio_player.php?id=28038

Good to hear Carl on the air. I would have called in but I was watching a 3-year old and also busy packing for the bread CSA.

Just in case anyone was wondering how much Vermont needs an agricultural renaissance, I came across some stunning statistics the other day. In 1974 we had some 2,200,000 acres of class I and II farmland in production. By 2002 only 710,000. According a statewide food self-sufficiency analysis at that time (2002) we would need nearly all of those acres for the state to be self-sufficient in food.

Erik,

Did they say if the other nearly 1.5 million acres just “went out of production”, was planted to trees, or ended up under pavement? If the land is still open and just fallow, that could be a good thing for your (beautiful) state. It would mean that the land was resting, maybe recovering and would still be available for future production. If it is in trees, still not a bad thing. Subdivisions and other urban sprawl is a whole ‘nuther matter, hard to see any of that ever coming back into production.

Unfortunately, this same story seems to be playing out from coast to coast. I saw a sign today on a beautiful piece of property that was in rice production last year; future home of “Rooms To Go”, whatever that is.

[OldKat]

@Rod44 7852 wrote:

It belongs to one of my Amish friends. It is a mower off of a gang of mowers from a golf course. They build a seat on them and a set of shafts. Ground driven and pulls harder than you would think. Puts a good sweat on them.

How do you like this for a log carrier. Takes them from the staging area to the sawmill or where ever.

PS they are not that fit anymore.

:confused: How do they load those logs into that carrier?

[OldKat]

@Hal 7853 wrote:

I have recently been thinking a lot about how it is possible for farms to export products (to the public that eats them) and still be sustainable as a closed loop (without outside inputs to replace the nutrients lost in the “exported” foods). Does a well designed farm system actually create “new” nutrients/fertility that allow it to export “old” nutrients/fertility in foods that it sells? I just don’t understand how it could be possible to export foods without, however slowly, reducing the store of nutrients on farm unless some of those nutrients are replaced with outside fertility sources.

I would really like to better understand the idea of “closed loop” farms that still sell products to be consumed by people off the farm. Does anyone have thoughts about this issue?

I would guess it has to do somewhat with what crop you are producing; grain or hay versus produce or an animal crop of some sort. I suspect the nutrient drag on soil is much heavier with the former two versus the latter two. Is it possible to “create” nutrients? I don’t know the answer to that; does the use of legumes qualify? Perhaps we are just recycling existing nutrients to some degree. It would seem that if soil fertility were built to its theoretical maximum, any type of crop that leaves the property takes the fertility down from that point. In that sense, the answer is “No” … you must import nutrients of some sort.

I do know that there are soil scientists that say that if you sell hay off of your property you are doing exactly what you suggest, slowly reducing your soil fertility. Seems logical that this would apply to other crops as well. The degree to which you are doing this would vary with a number of factors, however. Maybe the slash that you leave to rot in the woodlot, the manure that animal agriculture produces, and the hay that you buy in to feed those animals offsets that which is lost to production.

Seems to me that we had this discussion in a soil science class I took in college, it has just been too many years ago to remember the conclusion that we reached. 😉

[OldKat]

@fabian 7742 wrote:

yoked yesterday first time my 15,5 month old steer fabian in his new single yoke and posted two pics in the gallery.

Wolfgang

Fabian looks nice, is he a Pinzgau(er)?

[OldKat]

Tayook,

I don’t know the answer to your questions, but I do know that I’d take the old timer up on his offer in a heartbeat if I were really interested in going into that business.

Jason, Carl and others that are knowledgeable about that subject can give you more specific advice than I can, but I know that it is unllikely you will ever get that sweet of an offer again.

I do think if I were to go into that business I would invest in one of the schools that are available on safe working practices, efficient ways to do things etc, etc. You don’t want go out and get hurt right off the bat because you don’t know the safety rules, likewise I bet you could go work your posterior off and have little to show for it if you don’t learn the “smarter, not harder” rules of working the woods.

Please let us know how it comes out for you. Oh, and I passed on a somewhat similar opportunity (different field though) when I was probably 24 or 25 yeras old. Possibly THE BIGGEST MISTAKE I EVER MADE. 🙁 At least study this deal and know all the pro’s and con’s before you decide which way you will go.

Good luck! I like stories like this.

[OldKat]

@Plowboy 7705 wrote:

Well I’ve figured out it is impossible to desensitize an animal to everything. While driving some horses last week we encountered a neighbors flock of emus turned out in their pasture and up the road we ran across some semi feral hogs rooting in the brush along the road. Somewhere between the two anxious moments our host shared a story about a well broke mare that had a problem being in the same area as a camel at the fair. I guess no matter what you do it pays to be on your toes in the case that something unusual happens!

I agree that is probably not possible to desensitize an animal to ANY possible source of problem; the ever popular “boogey monster” is always lurking, BUT that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth the effort. I think the more things that the horse (or other animal) is exposed to, without melting down, the more confidence they have to deal with the unexpected boogey monster they may later encounter. 😮

If I had a 100 plus acre place available to me to drive in, such as BachelorFarmer has, I would no doubt use it. I don’t, so I use what I can. For me, in MY SITUATION (only) to hook and go wouldn’t be prudent. Glad it works for other people, and of course we each have a different situation … so if I were in someone else’s shoes, I’d probably do things differently. 🙂

For now we ground drive out into traffic, residential areas, Little League baseball fields etc & they are getting it. Each time is little better than the time before. Each trip out the gate and back is a little more relaxed than the time before. Next week it will be down to the local high school. Week after that I am off for the whole week. I will probably drive them downtown, down by the railroad tracks and also build a stone boat and start dragging it. Slow progress, but progress none-the-less. Maybe other people see this as a waste of time; so be it. Works well for me.

[OldKat]

@near horse 7699 wrote:

Hi OldKat,

I’ve often wondered about the toxicity of treated wood or RR ties to horses that chew on them. Ties have tar and creosote and seem less “palatable” while pressure treated lumber has copper, chromium and arsenic (CCA) in them. These can all be toxic but it’s hard to know just how much a horse is actually ingesting. You might take a look at copper toxicity symptoms and how those match up w/ what you’re seeing. Your vet can probably help ID that as well.

Did he start the chewing and the subsequent poor performance after being whalloped by your mare?

All the best.

Actually about the same time. At first I didn’t know who was chewing the wood. I kept blaming Rachel, one of the mares, because she is always the one that is “into” everything. Finally I caught him while he was chewing on a fence brace. The wood chewing started sometime in the fall and seems to have stopped, or at least slowed down within the last 3 to 4 weeks. I’m pretty sure Maggie rang his bell in November, so it is hard to say which came first.

I’m going to check out this toxicity issue. My wife fed for me today and she told me that she found a piece of his hoof that had flaked off and it was “like a piece of wood”. I’ve heard that some poisons can acculmulate in and under the nails in people, if this is so it makes sense that it would show up in his hooves … if that is what is causing this. Sure would like to solve this riddle.:confused:

[OldKat]

Welcome Lynette, hope you enjoy the site. Some really good folks hang out around here; really knowledgeable, too.

The subject of getting started with draft horses comes up from time to time on this forum, at least indirectly. The conventional wisdom is too get started with a very sound, well broke individual or team. I can’t say that I disagree with that, though that is not the way that I did it. 😉

Young, untrained horses are certainly (usually) cheaper than getting a proven trained one. However, some sage on this site (and I don’t really recall who said it) said something recently that makes a world of sense on this subject. The statement was something to the effect of “would you rather be driving your horses, or would you rather be training them?” THAT is a very valid point. Unless the time spent training is something that you would value, go with the ready to use version. Probably cheaper in the long run anyway.

The mentor is a great idea, if you can find one. I have not had one and it makes the sledding a little tougher than otherwise. Fortunately for me there is a guy that has been working Clydesdales for about 30 to 35 years that just moved to my town and he said he would be glad to help me out with my horses. I bring this up, because it seems to me that people that are drawn to working animals are kind of like a fraternity, or in your case a sorority, they seem to be real anxious to help other, less experienced folks on down the road.

Good luck & again, welcome to the forum.

[OldKat]

@CharlyBonifaz 7692 wrote:

if you call one out, maybe have him turn some bloodsamples in, check for liver problems, thyroid…..etc.

would they have sunflower seeds?
elke

Good idea, and not too expensive either.

Yes, almost all feed dealers locally stock the black oil-seed sunflower seeds. We use to feed them to rabbits, I never thought about feeding to horses. How are they fed? e.g. quantity?

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 7177 wrote:

Tevis, and others, I am not suggesting that anybody give up their chosen work, nor to break the law, nor to start some civil disobedience.

My points are only intended to point out that governments are temporary, but community is perpetual. When government regulation begins to limit our rights, then it makes little sense to me, to expect that the authority that has created the problem, will contribute meaningfully to the solution.

Many people refer to the constitution as such an important document, but all it does is facilitate the formation of a government that was offered as alternative to British rule. The current experiment in government was an alternative to anarchy that would have driven us back into the waiting arms of the tyrant.

The more important document in my mind is the declaration of independence, because it clearly illuminates that not only do we have rights that supersede those provided by government, but we also have responsibility to determine at what point we need to resist over-reaching authority.

I am not suggesting a revolution, just that we realize that we have solutions that lay outside of government, and that if we want to try to follow the laws and regulations that’s ok, but that we also work on invigorating those aspects of community that will give us the support we need, both in living common sense lives, and in the case that the current system crumbles.

(If an USDA agent suggested video surveillance cameras in our farm store room, I’d just cite the recent example of the day-time burglar who was reeking havoc around central Vermont, only to be stymied by the fierce response by the watchful neighbors in our community. Within days enough people had compared notes that they led to cops right to him.)

Carl

Catching up on some old threads tonight and came back to this. Like Carl, I’m not advocating anything here; just recalling a story a businessman once told me.

The summer between my junior and senior years in college I had an internship with a feed company. One of the things I did was a dealer survey to determine what services were being offered and what equipment was needed to offer those services. One guy told me he had on site grain storage and had “experienced” several visits from OSHA, which was a greatly feared federal agency in that day (don’t hear many horror stories from them anymore though). Anyway, he said one OSHA guy came by and told him his ladder on the side of his grain bin was unsafe because it had no cage around it & that he would have to add one. He did so only to be told by the next inspector that it was unsafe, because someone could slip on the ladder and become entangled in the cage. His order? Remove the cage. This was done, only to be reinstalled at the order of the next inspector.

The final straw was when an OSHA inspector came by and said that ANY permanent ladder on the bin was unsafe and should be removed. His solution instead? Get an aluminum ladder that could be stored away from the bin and leaned against it when needed! To which the dealer claimed that he very slowly and deliberately went into his office, got three double-0 shotgun shells, calmly loaded them in his Remington 870 pump shotgun (in plain sight of the OSHA guy) and then told him that he had two ways he could leave the premises; “immediately or dead”. To which he added; “and DON’T COME BACK”. He claimed that it had been about 4 years and he had not seen another OSHA inspector.

Have no way of telling if that was a true story, but he seemed fairly sincere in his telling of it. The 870 was leaning in the corner behind his desk, so I didn’t question it too much!

I don’t know; ideally it shouldn’t have to come to that. Story stuck with me though.

[OldKat]

Informative stuff. Thanks guys.

[OldKat]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have checked his teeth, but just by twitching his nose and holding his jaw open with a spreader yoke and then running my fingers along his molars. I did not find any ridges or burrs, but I am going to let the vet check this out next week as well.

Just yesterday we noticed something new happening and it probably isn’t good. His hooves, which are about 2 to 3 weeks overdue for trimming, have started to chip and flake. No big surprise there, but they are doing something I have never seen a horse hoof do; only the outer wall is chipping away. You can actually see the fibrous inner wall, white line and part of the sole from the outside if you get down and look at the hoof from ground level. The frog has more of a spongy feel to it than you would think it would have in such dry weather as we are experiencing. The frog is really dark (his frogs are usually a light color), but there is no strong odor to them.

I mentioned earlier that he had been chewing wood. That appears to have stopped, but most of the wood he was chewing was treated wood. I am starting to wonder if he was poisoning himself on the treated wood. Next week when I have a couple of days off I am going to remove any treated wood that I can, if it is no longer needed. Everywhere else where he has chewed it is going to get a coating of a chew stop paint stuff that a friend of mine recommended. He did seem to look a little better today. Hopefully, if this is what was causing him problems it isn’t something permanent
.

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