[OldKat]

@near horse 6752 wrote:

On more thought about where tractor farming took agriculture. I think it started the breakdown of “community” in farming. Sure, there was still the elevator, feed store, …. but coming together as a community to help each other seemed to disappear when one guy could farm and harvest what used to take many. The local threshing crews that moved from one place to the next – all local people – just weren’t necessary.

.. and that is actually what I referring to when I mentioned the “scaling up” of farming operations over the last 7 or 8 decades. It has reached its logical, or illogical if you wish, conclusion. I saw a documentary on A&E, Discovery, or similar some 3 or 4 years ago that talked about towns in the mid-west that used to support maybe 100 or more farm families were down to maybe 5 or 6 families because the farmers are now are farming thousands of acres where a generation ago they were farming hundreds of acres each. Five or six families won’t support a grocery store, the drug store, elementary school etc.

Several years ago I bought some heifers from a guy in Nash, Oklahoma in the NW part of that state. When I went up there to pick them out I couldn’t help but notice all the dried up little towns, almost vacant just like they showed on TV. Sure makes you think …

[OldKat]

@Hal 6722 wrote:

I would have never thought about it that way. I am sure that this is partially true, but it seems sad that tractors pretty much took over agriculture when they came around, and that draft horse numbers declined so much. Isn’t it true that even many people who were good with horses did not keep them, just because tractors were the new “in”technology?

Probably a true statement, but there were other factors in play as well. As much as the USDA apparently tried to stay out of the fray as to which was the best route to pursue the Land Grant U’s were busy teaching “economy of scale” which favored the machine over the animal.

If that is your ONLY measurement of viability the tractor probably is the better way to go. Of course that lead to formulated NPK rather that natural alternatives, legumes etc and then herbicides vs mechanical cultivation, then GMO vs whatever came before GMO.

While I think a bunch of people have come to reject some of the truisms that got us here, it is also a fact that we have the benefit of looking back over about an 80 year history of the transition that the farmers of that era didn’t have. I think the farm eighty rather than forty, farm one sixty rather than eighty, farm a section rather than 160 or even 320 mindset seemed to make sense to many people. The old least cost commodity producer trap dramatically changed the very face of agriculture in our country and around the world. Much of the crap that came along with that change is making less and less sense and is very probably “not sustainable” in the long run.

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 6643 wrote:

The name is, or should be a command to alert that animal that you are speaking to it. It does not describe “who” it is.

To effectively work with animals you need to understand them as the animal that they are, and that is not “human”. This means get out of your head, and try to relate to the animal on their terms. They cannot “speak human”, so you have to learn their language.

Hal, your concern is a good indication of your sensitivity, which is a big step in the right direction.

Old Kat, this unfortunately is a big problem, many many people impulsively buy into this dream, and even though they could possibly develop the skills, they are so dependent on their ability to spend money to solve their problems that they are handicapped when it comes time to invest themselves in learning the skills.

Carl

One thing I forgot to mention, but your comments nail this home, too, is that I asked the instructor (who was also the farm manager) why did the owner even get into this & how did he happen to choose Clydesdales as his chosen breed?

His answer was very telling; he said “Well he likes Budweiser …” Whenever I meet someone with Clyde’s I usually ask “How did you come to choose Clydesdales?” Almost invariably they say something about Budweiser. I am sure that there are plenty of folks out there that this does not apply to, but it is not exactly the greatest reason to choose to own a certain breed of animal.

[OldKat]

@Robert MoonShadow 6635 wrote:

Hal ~ I have the same book – and am reading it now, also. My impression of what he meant in that text was more about a person’s temperament – for example, farmers that are totally goal-focused as opposed to those that are process-oriented. Get the field plowed in the fastest, most efficient manner (large tractor) or get as much work done while enjoying the process & manner in which it’s done. He points out that such a goal-oriented person can become fixated on the end results; that type of person would find it hard to adapt to the slower pace of working with animals. Which can lead to impatience… then frustration… and both the farmer & the animals having negative experiences from it.
Just my take on what he’s referring to.

… in all of these posts. Robert’s in particular brings to mind something that someone told me several years ago. When I first decided to start up with work horses I decided to go take a 3 & 1/2 day short course on driving that was being offered by a very qualified instructor, as I hadn’t done any driving at all in about 15 years and very little since I was about 15 or 16 years old (which was about, ohhh, ahhh, never mind how long ago THAT was!)

Anyway, about the second day of the course (I happened to be the only one that signed up for that session, so I got some in-depth attention) the instructor started chuckling while I was driving. I thought I must be screwing up badly, so I asked “Well what am I doing wrong?” He said, “Oh nothing, I was just thinking that you have better “hands” than the guy that owns this farm and I have been working with him for over 2 years”. I asked what the owners problem seemed to be and he said “Well, he has absolutely no touch with the lines, every thing he does is very heavy handed” Then he said “You know some people just can’t get it. They have no feel for this”

That sure made me feel good, but I felt bad for the guy that had made such an investment in the horses, equipment, land, barns etc. I asked the instructor, “What does he do for a living?” I won’t say what it was that the guy did, but his next comment was pretty telling. He said “I guess his world is all about high pressure and tension & doing deals. He just can’t seem to get it through his head that the horses don’t respond all that well to that way of doing things” Sure seems to fit with what Robert is saying.

[OldKat]

@Rod 6471 wrote:

I have a real nice JD model L manure spreader for sale. This spreader has no rust, good chain, good floor and sides, good tires and beaters and works great. Nice paint, decals etc and I have the manual (somewhere). This is a nice quality ground driven spreader ready to go to work. I think it’s 75 bu. capacity. Price is $1000 and located in Bellows Falls Vt. call me at 802-376-5474 or e-mail rod@dayspringfarm.com for photos.

Wish you weren’t so far away from me. I went to an equipment sale two weeks ago this past Saturday & a JD ground drive manure spreader that wasn’t even close to the condition of yours went for over $1,700. I was kinda interested in it, but I got over that real quick.

[OldKat]

@Robert MoonShadow 6467 wrote:

I agree with Erika; the sales help will be very important. Not just their attitudes & general knowledge, but their availability. But this goes beyond just marketing basics; as in most direct-marketing, it’ll depend on relationship building – not just customers/seller, but in seller/seller.
The most helpful (and hardest to answer) question to ask is simply “What’s in it for me?” –> from a customer’s viewpoint AND from a seller/producer’s. Why should I, as a customer, pick your store? Alternatively, why should I, as a producer sell at your store? I don’t mean it as a negative attitude, but positive… if the answers are right, you’ll be overwhelmed with custiomers – and with sellers with good attitudes. If not, you’ll be underwhelmed… and have only your things on the shelves. My personal hardship is explaining my vision to others = what’s obvious to me in my mind’s eye, isn’t neccesarily so to others.

I have a good friend that opened a coffee shop in a small town (not a trendy, touristy place … just a town that had been 5,000 people 15 to 20 years before, but had grown to probably 25,000 because it was less than an hours drive from a big city) probably 13 or 14 years ago, long before Starbucks would even look twice at a community like that. His shop was profitable from the very first day, but after about 2 & 1/2 years he sold out. The problem? He could graph his sales day in and day out and the days that he was not in the shop the volume would only be about 65 to 70% of what it was when he was there. At first he thought the employees were stealing from him, but the inventory closely matched the cash register. Finally he started asking the regular customers what the issue might be and they quickly told him that on the days he was there they would order a cup of Joe, chew some fat with him and order up again. On the days he was not there they would buy a cup & keep on moving because they really didn’t have anything in common with the kids behind the counter. When he realized that he could make a nice living at his shop, but he was going to have to continue working about 70 to 80 hours a week to do it he baled out.

From what I can discern of your concept, Donn, it sounds very interesting. Please keep us updated as this progresses.

You know,there is someone in our town (<4,000) that is opening a "Produce Market" and they made point of saying that it is NOT a Co-op, which I thought was sort of odd. Not sure of any of the details as to how they plan to operate, but they have invested in some nice facilities just a couple of blocks from the downtown square.

[OldKat]

@Nick 6346 wrote:

There is a great resource right here in Vermont which has developed equipment fabrication design packets for a tractor pulled turner and also an interesting low tech/cost turner. The aerating bucket is a retrofitted tractor bucket with metal poles attached to the bucet. The idea is you drive the bucket into the side of the compost pile and lift up – the poles move through the compost disturbing and aerating the pile without turning it. This saves on space needed for the pile. The organization is The Highfields Institute located in Hardwick, VT. Check out theire web site http://www.highfieldsinstitute.org They also have a demonstration site, workshops and offer consultation services and grant funded direct services to farmers. Let me know if you need more info.

That is one impressive piece of equipment. More than I would probably ever need, but nonetheless an impressive effort.

[OldKat]

Plowboy,

The picture of you driving the eight black and grays is going to be my new desktop for my PC at work. Great pictures, all nice horses.

[OldKat]

@jenjudkins 6370 wrote:

The round pen probably deserves a thread of its own, but in regard to positive and negative reinforcement, I’ll comment…and probably piss some of you off.

The round pen is simply a ‘classroom’ of sorts. It’s roundness levels the playing ground for the human (we’re wimps when it comes to running fast), but allows the horse freedom of movement (albeit in a circle). So done properly both the human and the horse benefit from the configuation in regard to their strengths.

The goals traditionally in the round pen is to use psychology to convince a horse that you can control their movement…change their direction, yield their haunches, move their forehand around, etc. Its been said by sage horsemen that if you can turn a horse around their front end 360 degrees and do the same with the hind end, they will follow you anywhere. Has anyone seen the movie, ‘The Man from Snowy River’? There is a scene where the main horseman is rounding up a big herd of horses…the one where he gallops down a steep incline (I love that scene). Anyway, he catches the herd and turns them all the way around to the left and then to the right. Then they simply follow him home. Horses are born followers and it is simpler than you think to convince them you are a leader.

In more recent times the round pen has taken on less of a ‘human dominating the horse’ to a place where horse and human can learn to communicate better. Its a place to practice what horses do with each other naturally. Horses naturally apply pressure to other horses, generally without emotion and withdraw it instantly (positive reinforcement)when the other horse complies. Many humans, on the other hand, have to get mad (negative reinforcement) to exert any pressure or significant body language, then can’t relax in an effective manner (more negative reinforcement/lack of appropriate positive reinforcement). The result is…well….very bad communication and frequently fear on the part of the horse.

I’ve seen the round pen abused often. A human applying more pressure than is necessary, knowing the horse cannot leave. It can be effective, but it is counter productive in the end, as the horse will exit when they feel they can in another setting.

Put simply a round pen can be an excellent place to teach ourselves the art of applying pressure without emotion and withdrawing it in an instant (like the clicker) when the desired behavior is witnessed or created. Once learned however, the round pen becomes obsolete.

I believe the clicker was originally created to take the emotion out of training…by distracting the trainer. Not a bad goal in and of itself…

Sorry to prattle on…

I think you sort of got to the same point I did, you just said it better.

[OldKat]

@Hal 6355 wrote:

I hope that I am not going off on a tangent here, but I have a question in response to Jen Judkins’ post about positive/negative reinforcement with horses. Is this idea of using body position and movement to provide reinforcement for horses the basis for the practice of training in a “round pen”? I have read some things about round pen training but I am still confused by why it is supposed to work and why horses respond as they do to this method.

Hal,

My background with horses prior to the first Percheron that I bought in 1987 was with saddle horses, what we called “working horses”. This basically means cow horses, ranch horses or whatever you would call them. My first venture into “work” or draft horses ended suddenly and badly with an early morning lightning strike, so I never had much exposure to the big horses again until I adopted two PMU rescue fillies 4 years ago. I give you this info only so that you will understand that my experiences are NOT decades long with work horses like Plowboy, Carl, Jason and some others have.

At least some round pen work is VERY common with some, maybe most, cow horse trainers. The concept is fairly straight forward; supposedly in wild or even feral herds of horses the dominant mare or mares will discipline the younger (usually male) members of the herd by driving them away whenever their behavior is out of line. The youngsters understand instinctively that they are literally dead meat if they are not part of the band or herd. The cougar or bear or whatever predator is lurking nearby would dearly love to see a lone youngster outside the protection provided by the herd. So they (the youngster) react by demonstrating their “agreement” to behave. They signal this in several ways, twitching their ears, turning an ear to dominant mare, lowering their heads, making licking and chewing motions with their mouths. At some point the dominant mare will signal the youngster that it is okay to rejoin the band, which they are by now anxious to do. They are then “receptive” to whatever it is that keeps them in the good graces of this and other dominant members of the band. They are making a pact by “rejoining” or “joining-up” with the herd. They are saying “Okay, you will be the leader(s) and I will do what you say”

The object of round pen work is to make the trainer the dominant mare or as I call it, the “Boss Hoss”. You send the horse “away”, keeping them moving around the perimeter of the pen until they react as if they were keeping expelled from the herd. The task is to get the trainee to be submissive and accept your role as the Boss Hoss. Once you have achieved this, the training (SUPPOSSEDLY) goes much smoother. As with anything else that you can do in life, this process has its share of proponents and detractors. There are those that say this is “the only way to train”, obviously not true. There are also those that see it as manipulative and counter productive, well I say to them ….????whatever????

I’ve used it, it helps. It is NOT a magic bullet. It is a tool and nothing more. It is one tool in a trainer’s tool box. I can give you more background if you are interested, but that is the view from the 20,000 foot level.

I said all of that to say this; the short answer to your question, is “Yes” … body position and release (along with several other more subtle variables) are key to the process of round pen training. Hope this is clearer than it sounds as I read it!

[OldKat]

@dominiquer60 5450 wrote:

OldKat you are right about a lot of things especially the cattle and horse bit, but it doesn’t disqualify you at all. The big thing that I disagree with is that I put a lot of hope on one human everyday and for the rest of my life, me. I have to take responsibility for myself and I hope that I make good decisions for me, my family and my intimate community. I do hope that Obama and friends manage to start to improve the man made craziness that is our government and economy, I won’t celebrate until they show progress. I will do my best to support my causes and vote, but at the end of the day, the decisions that I make have the greatest influence on me, therefore my greatest hope lies in myself.

Yes! I totally agree, that is the qualifier I should have used when I said “any”. You are 100% correct, we have to take responsibility for our own actions; our families welfare, our community, schools etc. We vote for those whom we think we agree with, we really have no real control of what they do once they are in office.

We do have control over what we do as individuals … the “me” that you so correctly point out as the most critical person that we can have hope in. Obviously I have hope my wife will do the right things, I hope my kids will do the right things, I hope my friends will do the right things. I hope all mankind does the right things for that matter. I can’t control any of these. I can however control what I do & can take great hope in that.

Great point, thanks for correcting me. Oh, and thanks for the kind words.

[OldKat]

@bivol 6237 wrote:

hi!

how much do cattle grieve after losing their calf or teammate and can their grief kill them?

i read somewhere that in case of of death of one teammate the other ox should also be put down.

i red in our daily paper years ago that a guy in germany had a pet bull. he brought him up, and apparently they were close. when the man died, the bull broke the fence and looked for the man. he found the man’s grave and wouldn’t leave.

a story from my family:

my aunt, who has cows told me that when she bought her new milch cow she saw her crying the night after she arrived. she couldn’t believe the look in the cow’s eyes, and tears. that young cow left stall with her mother and her calf, and was now alone. she couldn’t believe that cattle could actually cry with tears.

has anyone had similar experience?

I can believe it, but I wouldn’t have before the experience that follows.

I have a large steer, technically an ox as he is over 30 months of age, named Stormy. He is out of a Holstein cow and by a black Limousine bull. This big guy is about 6 foot tall and easily weighs over a ton. He was raised with one of our Red Angus cow’s # K 851 (also known as June) who happened to be the last show heifer that my daughter raised. (They are 2 of only 4 bovines that we own that actually have a name, so you know they are kind of special to us) When they were both about 4 & 1/2 years old I decided to move some cattle to a different piece of property, with all of the females going to a place in an adjoining county. Since my herd bull does his best to kill Stormy every time he sees him I decided to leave him as a baby sitter for some younger steers and bulls.

When I loaded out the trailer and June got on it he stood and bellowed and bellowed by the corral. When I drove off, Stormy ran for probably 1/2 mile down the fence line and I wasn’t so sure that he wasn’t going to try to jump the fence at the end of the property and follow us. When I came back for a second load he was still standing in the corner of the fence line.

When he saw the truck and trailer turn the corner he ran along the fence all the way back to the corral as I drove down to it. When I got there I went over to look at him & I promise you he was crying! I could not believe what I was seeing, but there is no doubt in my mind that he was indeed weeping. He was so upset that I actually went to that property for several days in a row just to check on him.

Due to the drought I have had to reduce my herd size (again) and I decided at the end of the year to let go of the lease where Stormy was staying, so I moved him and the remaining steers and bulls to the place where the cows are. I put up a 3 wire electric fence to keep the herds apart. When Stormy and June saw each other it was like a family reunion. You never saw two happier animals! Anytime the two herds are near each other June and Stormy will be seen standing across the fence from each other, happy as can be. So yes, I do think cattle can grieve (and celebrate).

[OldKat]

@Plowboy 6315 wrote:

Grey, That’s a unique philosophy you have. I can’t say wether it’s entirely probable because I wonder if your trust/ communication improved by the actual amount of work you were doing with them instead of blinders or no blinders. It would be hard to measure either way there are too many variables, different horse personalities being the most difficult to assess. I can’t say for sure because we are still experimenting with open bridles. The one thing I will say is the trust/communication improves dramatically the more the animals get used and that I know for certain. We have some friends with horses that are always having problems and the real problem is that they won’t make the commitment to use their young animals several times a week. They want a miraculous transition without the effort. I commend you for being a doer and maybe I’ll give your theory a go sometime and see how they react to being put back in blinders.

Plowboy,

Since you bumped into an issue that I have with my horses I’ll address this to you, but really anybody that has an idea is welcome to respond. My issue is this; due to my work schedule I am at work roughly half the month, in other words I work 14 times out of a 28 day cycle. When I am working it is 15 hours from the time I leave the house until I get back home. Not good for trying to put in some harness time.

The good news is the other 14 days of the cycle I am off and I have some fairly big blocks of time to work with them. The days working are broken up into “sets”, no more than 4 in a row. Between sets I am off twice for 3 days in a row, once for only 1 day and once for 7 days in a row. The days off are great for working the girls; the days I have to work are a non-starter. I never thought this would be an issue, because I thought I would have been retired by now … BUT that didn’t happen & isn’t likely to happen anytime soon. So if anyone has any ideas on how to keep them going in the right direction when I literally don’t have time to work them I am all ears.

Thanks in advance for any feedback that you all have to offer.

[OldKat]

… Hesiod. Interesting story that you have to tell.

Hope you enjoy the site. Some very knowledgeable folks here. I almost always learn something new and interesting everytime I log on.

Oh, check your PM. I sent you a message about Argentina a few minutes ago.

[OldKat]

@Biological Woodsman 6178 wrote:

Well I’m not really sure about the Southern Draft Horse Association, but they may be a pulling horse group more than a general draft horse association.

I don’t want to criticize their efforts, because just like the Bud Clydes, they are giving draft horses a place in the public eye and giving draft horses something to do. I would have to say I hope I have friends in that group too.

But these folks are serious about winning and are no different than any other professional level sport. I guess some qualifiers of being a serious pulling circuit are how much money do they pay to win and how far people travel to compete.

I had a TV reporter interview me once at a big time pull, (back before I stopped going long distances – just to be out classed). and he asked did I think the animals were abused and drugged. My response was that they were probably about as abused and drugged as the audience watching it or the general human population, no more, no less. They aired it… got a few comments, but back then I wasn’t as public as now…

Then there was a very proper lady came up to me once at a small pull and said you look like a reasonable man (duh…what?) – don’t you think pulling these horses is cruel? So I took my hands and made a square shape on my horses rump and said Maim, just imagine this is a can of Alpo, do you think
Duke would rather be in that can or here doing this with us? My point being this is something for horses to do, although not as undeniably beneficial as being the power source for restorative sustainable forestry, but a place on this earth as a useful living creature, which is better than disappearing altogether.

If you want to avoid dishonesty and ego, you may have to avoid most human sports activities altogether or maybe most human activities period.

Most human sports have the element of judging/referees/umpires, etc involved….that makes it subject to the most important player not actually being a player… not to mention additional honesty and ego questions…

I think the element of community that Carl speaks of is more of what horse pulling means to us small time fellows. That does make it a valuable cultural experience and just more fun. People are happy – glad to be there, friendly and usually helpful in any way possible. It is a group experience when kept to a local regional level.

If you are close to any advertised pull it is probably worth going, I would.

Hope this doesn’t make to many folks mad… got to get off here, watching PBR…..

… for one of the truest statements ever made, anywhere on any board is highlighted in bold italics, above. So true, so very true. Sometimes that is EXACTLY the way I feel. I have given up entirely on pro sports for this reason. Don’t need non-sense that goes along with the actual on the field activities.

When I leave work I just want to work with my horses, check my cows and RELAX; no people, no TV, no radio, no cell phone … nothing, just me and my “critters”. In fact, I was thinking about having a bumper sticker made that says; “I like most cows I ever met and every horse & dog I ever met better than most people I ever met”. Then I remembered that I don’t do bumper stickers, so I let it slide!

[Author]

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