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Robert MoonShadow
ParticipantInteresting, how similar some of the Croatian/Balkan sayings are to some we have over here. Some, honestly, I haven’t quite figured out yet.
My personal favorite:
“In the Land of the Blind, a one-eyed man is King.”ParticipantNice wagon. Is that log hanging in front of the rear wheels some sort of braking mechanism?
ParticipantWhen first reading the original posting to this thread, I had a gut-instinct that said “No.” I didn’t have the words or thoughts to explain why I felt so, but after more than a week of thinking on it, hopefully I now do: One of the premises that form a foundation on how I work with my animals – any animals – is that I do not want to teach them to fear me. Respect, obey, accept me as the herd boss/alpha male/lead goat/tough bunny, yes. {“Tough bunny”?} But not fear me. In fact, just the opposite = if anything causes alarm, turn to me for guidance. I do not cause the harm or fear: I am the solution to it, and guidance through it. Forcing a mule to be hitched to something it initially fears (f.e. the tractor), shows me as a source of fear – even if eventually the animal learns not to fear the original source – the tractor, etc. – it has learned that I, in at least some cases, will induce or condone the cause of that fear. If a child comes to you in fear of the monster under the bed, and you laugh it off & send the child off to bed or to seek solace from another, that child instantly learns that in at least some instances, you can not be counted on for that solace and protection. I use this example of a child only for the reason that I consider most animal emotional & logical patterns to be similar to that of a child = very basic and forthright in nature.
I re-entered this discussion solely for the purpose of explaining this viewpoint of mine, and because on this forum, I have come to reasonably expect intelligent conversation – I think the responses and differing viewpoints on this will be very enlightening. Obviously, some here think that this method is quite adequate and turns out trustworthy working animals… and listening to them gives me something to measure my thoughts with. That’s valuable to me. Whether someone derives their entire living with work animals, partly so, or just “play” (as it was phrased), it’s all the same to me: it has intrinsic value in and of itself –> and should be respected as such – anything else seems elitist, to me. So, I will continue to take in the responses herein & use what I can, that fits me & mine – and thank each & every one of you for your contributions to this forum.ParticipantYeah, me too… only there’s usually a pair of daisy-dukes & a tanktop involved. 😉
ParticipantAny photos, Geoff?
ParticipantWe differ.
Peace.
ParticipantI agree with Hal; and respectfully disagree with Ronnie on this one; if I can’t have a meaningful, friendly relationship with my animals, then what’s the point? Nostalgia? Because a tiller or tractor is more efficient (with some important exceptions) if you’re just talking work performance. As I said, I don’t know, and can’t verify how many, if any, of these mules of Clarence’s were trained by Strode; most are old enough, anyways. I just pointed out that it’s claimed that some are, and that the intent was there to focus on buying them, back in the 90’s when he & my boss first got started & were partners. That’s why I made that point of saying so, up front. IF any of these were trained by him – and IF this is the technique he used on them, then I see a difference between them and what Bobby & Ellie are willing to do for Bonner. I do know that the donks I had in my little “pack string” were all trained to lead by lead rope when I got them. I gave them all the choice, and they all ended up preferring to just tag along without leads… and I spent a memorable summer back- and donkey- packing across Yellowstone, years ago… without hobbles or a lead rope (um, because some dummy forgot the lead when breaking camp on the second morning and was 4-5 miles away when he realized it). :rolleyes:
I still stand by my original statement: I, personally, would not trust an animal trained in this manner, so would not own one. Others might find them highly useful; I would not. I am not qualified nor experienced enough to train a work animal… until I am, I will buy what I need, already trained – but not trained in this manner. Which, of course, is no big deal… unless you happen to be selling 1-3 donkeys or small mules, then it might. Which was my original point: I wasn’t condemning the method, but rather just pointing out that if the purpose was to train the animals then sell them, some people such as myself take the training method into consideration when buying.ParticipantAaronlee’s last post here got me to thinking about chainsaw courses. However, I haven’t been able to find any around here (because, evidently no one NEEDS it, being as how everybody hereabouts were born with chainsaws in their hands). After several years of harvesting & selling firewood, I know just enough to know that I don’t have safe techniques; just what I’ve been able to figure out on my own, and from an occasional opportunity to see someone else drop trees. So, I personally have a need for a good safety and technique video or dvd that can be played on my computer… if anyone puts one out? I tried checking out Jason’s & Carl’s websites to see what they have to offer, but with dial-up, it takes so long to even change pages here, much less unfamiliar sites. Can someone give me a heads up on what’s available, including discription & price?
ParticipantHere’s a trick I just figured out about a week ago…
I want to experiment with growing some medicinal herbs in small raised beds. However, not yet having a trained draft animal handy, nor a riding cultivator as suggested by Carl for raised beds (in another thread), I decided to just build them; except scrap lumber is in short supply for me, right now. So, I built a reusable form out of a 1×6 & a 1×8 board = ended up being 3′ x 7 1/2′. I just place it, fill it with sifted compost, tamp the edges a bit to firm them up, then gently pry the frame up until I’ve got it loose. I then plant the bed. The edges crumble just a bit, but holds it’s shape pretty well, and I can now have raised beds in any pattern I need = very useful for filling in the edges of an irregular-shaped field & I’ve even managed to put the rocky end of the field into useful production. After the short-season crops & herbs are harvested, I’ll place beds in between these ones, and thus end up with a wide area of rocky soil coverd in 6″ of compost – for the price of 24 wood screws, a short 2×4 (to screw the boards together in the corners) & two boards I dug out of the dumpster. It takes me 4 wheelbarrow loads to fill this form with compost (estimated to be not quite a cubic yard). I’ll see how effective these raised beds are for herbs & cool-season veggies, while improving the soil in the area.ParticipantGeoff; I’ve GOT one of those $25/hour jobs {actually runs up to $35, depending on “prevailing wage’} –> trouble is, it’s seasonal – but this one’s looking like a long season, so I should be able to afford the down payment on some land this year…
…so I can get on with my true love = truck farming for a hell of a lot less than $25/hour!! {Hey, somebody’s got to be the crazy one around here & I’m more qualified for that title than most! hehehehe}
I measure my wealth in things more substantial than mere money…
…I drive my boss & friends crazy when I tell them “It’s only money – they’ll make more!”ParticipantI don’t think that an animal “has to be my buddy” to learn anything… or to be trustworthy; however, just as with humans, I trust those that are my friends more than I do those that aren’t. Can others than those that are my friends be trustworthy? Yes, of course. But the trust I share with friends is deeper, more bonding than others. I just don’t see this method as being conducive to developing that type of relationship. I see a difference in the animals that have been submission trained (fear is but only one {extreme}type of submission training) and an animal that has actually been allowed to make the choice… of course, the tricky part is to give them motivation to choose my way. If the only way to successfully train or teach an individual animal happens to be this method, then I know that that animal & I will never “fit”… and so I wouldn’t buy it – or if I have, then I’d sell it. And yes, I did learn from this… I learned that I wouldn’t have a use for it; but it was enlightening, in that regard. As for the Jack Strode mules being desired = those 20 mules I posted about being for sale a while ago? Most were originally bought at the big auction in Tennessee, with a focus on buying Jack Strode-trained ones. I can’t say how any others are – or even if these are really trained by him, but I CAN say that Clarence’s biggest Belgian mule is at least 300# bigger than Ellie… who will outpull him any day of the week; because 1) she just likes to pull 2) she really likes Bonner – and will do ANYthing for him. Nothing wrong with these mules at all – but I see the difference, and desire it. This method most definitely seems an effective way to take a raw, even rank, animal and get it to working in a very short time. But I wonder… is there any other, equally effective method that’ll do the same results in the same time frame? I don’t know ‘horse whispering’ from horsesh**, so I ask those of you who might know. I’m not trying to argue, here… I’m trying to learn. I do thank you for sharing your words & views… whether or not I agree with them.
ParticipantRod44 ~ Please note that in my post, I never said anything about it being “right” or ”wrong”. Frankly, I’m not qualified to call that one: I’ve never trained a draft animal (although I have modified some’s training to fit my way of doing things). I’m just saying that to me, it’s training by submission, and not by establishing a relationship of friendship & willingness… I want a partner, not a slave. I also see a difference in training like this & in hitching a raw mule to a trained one (as in the “old school” thread} – I think that is a guidance factor involved then. Again, this is my opinion; it is most definitely NOT a declaration of judgement. As it was said, there’s many, many mules & horses now available {and also training techniques}, thus, I see no need to deal with an animal that is trained in this manner. I’ll do my shopping with people that have quality animals that are willing and calm workers.
ParticipantI would never trust an animal that was broke in such a manner… and thus, would never buy one.
ParticipantPlowboy ~ Right on! That’s so cool, hearing about those two youngsters of yours! I really like hearing about the good ones. Any special way you went about teaching them?
ParticipantSanhestar: These are welded-wire panels – heavy gauge wire (about half as thick as a pencil) – are you talking about the heavier kind? Because that’s an extreme price for what I’m referring to.
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