[Scott G]

If you poke around in the archives you’ll find some other discussions on costs as well. Its an important topic we always seem to come back to.

The short, very open-ended answer is that you need to know what your specific costs (expenses) are and what you need to make for a living to then come up with the magic number. You also need to account for depreciation (and hopefully a bit of profit) Horses are tricky as they could be pigeon-holed as a fixed cost, but in reality there are variables according to how much they’re worked in the woods. Number one rule, you do not want to end up buying (paying for) work.

Even though this is sure to spark some heated discussion, strictly from a money & mechanics perspective, logging is logging regardless of the harvesting system. Timber on the stump is felled, limbed, bucked, skidded to the landing, and hauled off on a truck. Some modifications to this scenario might occur such as milling on site, but basically the process is the same.
My perspective comes from owning/running a large mechanical operation in the past as well as skidding with horses.

The huge benefit of horse logging, other than environmental and personal well being, are the low investment and operating costs. Those low costs come with the price of decreased productivity, however, which is relative. The only way the successful large operations make a go of it is through ‘economy of scale’. In other words, the margins are so tight that the only way to generate a profit (let alone pay for all of that iron) is to crank through volume at an incredible rate of speed. At pennies on the dollar it takes a helluva lot of pennies to make a dollar.

That is a cycle that I’m happy to say I’m not a part of anymore. Spent a lot of nights rotting my gut out trying to figure out how I was going to make the next payment on the CAT skidder, feller-buncher, chipper, payroll for 5 guys, etc. I can honestly say I haven’t done that with the horse operation. Hay, shoes, rigging, saw, etc.. are just not issues. Reality is that I sleep pretty damn good because I earned an ‘honest tired’ by the end of the day jumping stumps. Makes me question why I switched from horses to machinery in the first place. Increased volume/production does not necessarily equate to happiness & profitability. Full circle, I’m back to where I want/need to be…

But it still takes money for you and your horses to eat, stay in decent rigging/gear, and fuel/maintenance for your saw & truck. Put a sharp pencil to paper and you’ll answer those questions yourself.

Back to the basics of logging when it involves stumpage; it is all about time, motion, and volume. Given all the variables of the stand, site, & markets you need to have a pretty damn good idea of the realistic average volume you can move in a specific amount of time. Put all of those numbers together including price paid for stumpage and the price you will get at the landing or the mill and you’ll end up with a pretty good idea. With experience you’ll be able to walk in to a stand, and knowing local markets, will know what will work and what won’t.

That’s all based on stumpage. I typically don’t purchase stumpage unless it is a really nice stand of timber. The primary method I use is based more on a service model. The clients I work for are more interested in the health, aesthetics, and ecological integrity of their forest than anything else and are willing to pay for it. Unlike Rick’s area, there is no shortage of these folks in my region especially given the current issues of bark beetles, fire, etc. To the contrary, most of these folks are local neighbors whose small properties I could not afford to move into or justify working on when I had the large mechanical show. So now instead of saying “no”, I can now say “yes”, which makes all of us happy.

The range that I charge is $35-$45/hr. If there is value product generated they can either keep it or I will market it for them or possibly buy it back. The point being that my costs are covered and the owner of the timber maintains the liability through the point of final sale.

I do have to throw out the qualifier that the private forestry biz is not my sole source of income these days, though given the present situation it easily could be. I am also a agency forester, which makes my wife very happy. The agency also offers an awesome opportunity that in the near future will be incorporating my horse operation into that role as well. The agency will pick up all of my operational costs and pay my salary. I’ll be the only “government horse logger” that I know of. I’ll have to buy more horses to keep up with private forestry biz side but I think I can handle that…:D

Don’t quit your day job yet. Work at it hard with every bit of off time you have so that you can establish your personal way of going and have a handle on your numbers. A neighbor’s woodlot might be a good spot to start, and then by all means go for it if it works for you.

Now it’s time to go back to packing for the Maine woods to spend some extremely high quality time with Carl, John, Jim, Mitch, & others. Last time I can remember getting ready for this much fun it almost wasn’t legal…

[Scott G]

I am not going to say anything about the long range, but in case you’re interested…

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Unity&state=ME&site=GYX&textField1=44.6111&textField2=-69.335&e=0

[Scott G]

Hey Taylor,

Something I’ve done in the past (and want to get back to) was to use webbing loops, like you would use for rigging a zip line. Throw a half-hitch around the butt of these very small stems (3-5″) of regen that we clear out for fuel-breaks around homes. Clip those multiple hitches to a mainline with caribiners and go. Does a really efficient job of gathering everything up and taking a decent hitch to the chipper, landing, slash pile, or wherever you’re going with the stuff. I just used old climbing rope for that task, no need for the strength/expense of bull rope or Amsteel.

Sure wish you could make it to Maine, be a blast to have you there…

[Scott G]

Just goes to show regional differences…

Tie stalls are a rarity out here, box stalls and run in shelters are the norm. My horses are loose all of the time except when they are working. Exception being a couple of show paints we keep down low, close to town.

The heathiest horses I see out here are the ones that are allowed to roam in a corral, paddock or pasture (provided the pasture isn’t too rich that they founder). Once they get cooped up in a barn, eat out of an elevated manger, and possibly get turned out (and blanketed) once a day into a run; that seems to be when problems develop. Out in the open, as long as they have a windbreak, they thrive.

My personal routine, feed hay on the ground a.m. & p.m. If we are going to work, close the gate on the corral, come back when ready, harness/saddle up and go. If not, leave the gate open and let them roam up on the hill…

Stock tank is always filled, open, and available.

The only time I’ll feed elevated is if we’re out and about with a hay bag tied to side of the trailer. Dusty hay (common out here) fed in an elevated confined space (manger) seems to cause issues, coughing/snotty noses in the short term, heaves in the long run if not managed properly.

Monday Morning Sickness (azoturia) is usually caused by out of shape horses that are subject to extreme exertion and then confined again. It is an ” ignition off, run full tach, ignition off and put back in the barn” issue.

When I was involved in backcountry outfitting/packing, guiding hunting trips, etc. for making a living, it was (still is) fairly common to come across hunters whose horses did nothing but hang out on pasture 50 weeks a year and then “go like hell” for two weeks and end up in really bad shape, unable to move. I almost had to put a bullet in the head of one guy’s horse while trying to get him back to trail head, which was 35 miles away…

[Scott G]

Gee Mitch, sounding like LIF in Unity next week will be a picnic! I’ll come warm & waterproof, just hope the ground is firm enough so that we can move some wood…

It has been beyond warm & dry here. Have yet to have measurable snow at my place (8,000′). We normally have 3-4 decent storms by now and can maintain continuous snow cover and frozen ground for the season in a week or two. Series of storms coming in this week, maybe we can bleed some white & cold out of them.

[Scott G]

Tim,

Buy yourself a high-quality 5/8-3/4″ rigging bull rope from one of the arborist supply companies. Couple the rope with a couple of high quality rigging blocks and you’ll be set for life. There is absolutely no comparison to old sisal/hemp rope.

A few years back, I started replacing wire rope on skidder winches, etc.. with a new product called Amsteel Blue. It was originally developed for maritime use but has proven extremely useful for forestry applications. Stronger than wire rope of the same diameter and beyond light.

If you have ever pulled main line in your life and set chokers, you’ll think this stuff was a gift from the Gods.

When my guys started complaining about the weight of the choker bells I knew this stuff was awesome. I have only had it break twice, both times when it got snagged on sharp metal and the 30,000# winch kept pulling. The stuff gets fuzzy but doesn’t affect its strength/function. It is also extremely easy to splice.

Expensive but well worth it. Especially if you’ve ever had your share of jaggers in the hands from wire rope…

[Scott G]

I often use a pickeroon when I’m unloading 8′ posts by hand off the back end of my flat bed at the post mill or wood yard. You can really haul a** once you get a rythm going and end up with a nice neatly stacked deck to boot. Use tongs a phenomenal amount of the time as well for moving small wood. They permanently hang on my wedge pouch belt. Just goes to show every woods tool out there had/has a specific purpose for which no other would work as well. Quality woods hand tools are cheap when compared to saving your back and being inefficient.

[Scott G]

Rural Heritage has most of what has been mentioned. Joe will definitely set you up
http://www.ruralheritage.com/bookstore/catalog_group.cgi?subcategory=l

Also, as far as Gregg’s video, I have noticed clips of it on YouTube. Search “Logging 3 (or three) abreast” and I imagine it will pop up.

Making it to LIF in Maine would be your best bet ;), but if that is out of the question Joe also sells a DVD of LIF @ MOFGA

[Scott G]

John,
Check with Jason R. He has one.

How’s the leg healing up?

Take care of yourself.

[Scott G]

…and when I’m away from home and need a haircut, I look the barber straight in the eye and say “I’m a logger, come straight down from Coos Bay…” 😎

Welcome.

[Scott G]

$180 Reb, for all 3 days and they feed you …

Good deal, Great time

Registration link http://www.mofga.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=1Aatj%2bBnzgk%3d&tabid=297

[Scott G]

John Plowden of Stow, ME is currently manufacturing some Scandinavian style equipment modeled after what Carl’s previous link shows. Difference being that John’s does not incorporate a bogie axle, which runs much smoother in the woods. John may already be onto that and would certainly work with you on your ideas/needs. Best part is that you would be buying a domestic product from a North American horse logger.

Here’s the link
http://www.plowdenhorselogging.com/2009/10/multi-function-woods-tool.html

Even better yet, come to the LIF Workshop in Unity, ME 11/19-21 and see John and his equipment in person.
(shameless plug)

[Scott G]

Perfect, Carl. I want a pic of you running a saw full tach in one hand with lines in the other! That is the true definition of production!!:eek:

[Scott G]

@mitchmaine 21608 wrote:

when i was a kid, scott, they were saying the state of maine had been cut over seven times. the first crop of 200 foot by twelve foot white pines were taken off with handtools, and now they are mowing thirty year old spruce and fir with mechanical harvesters. go figure. anyway, the best we have now are fifth growth pine. some nice patches here and there, but the skidder took a big chunk out of the principle. hope you like the choppin’. a trees still a tree.

mitch

Yeah Mitch, the site potential/quality you guys have out there is above and beyond, for the most part, much better than my region. First off, you have water & soil…

I routinely cut in areas that have never been/minimally harvested in the past. Much of the country was just too rugged and/or inaccessible to log back in the day. Now that we have folks building houses on mountainsides, roads have been built into areas that previously were inacessible. Many of the new residents are adverse to cutting yet want to exclude fire and other natural disturbances as well. They have this “freeze frame” mentality of their piece of paradise being static and not dynamic. Not so much, something has to give… All of our forests in the Rocky Mtn region are disturbance driven and need to remain so in order to be truly sustainable. As I tell them, “pick your disturbance”.

As far as laying wood down @ MOFGA, I was prepared to ship one of my saws to John P. for the prep & workshop. He said not to bother and would come up with one if needed. I’ll still be packin’ my PPE & felling/woods gear though.

Probably best that I’m not bringing one of my saws. They typically run @ 8,500′ – 9,500′ elevation. They wouldn’t be able to run in an environment that actually had oxygen. For that matter, don’t know how I’ll do. Might just have to take a big bite/gulp of air when I land in Bangor and that’ll do me for the week…:D

[Scott G]

I’m beyond stoked! Getting hard to concentrate on the tasks at hand…

I have the MFS website up right now so that I can familiarize myself with the region, forest cover types, etc. Seems as though many of the same issues face forestry in N America, regardless of which region you are located.

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