[Scott G]

Carl could probably help you out with that one.

[Scott G]

@near horse 19615 wrote:

Careful about stirring things up – Uncle Joe over on RH closed down a thread regarding conservative “commentator” Glenn Beck …. you can imagine where it went!

Hey Geoff,

I was contemplating jumping in on that one but didn’t have enough facts/background to back up my statements other than my own personal opinion. The reason I don’t have the background is due to the fact I can’t stand listening to the guy, or most of them for that matter. When pundits start to rant all well reasoned discussion goes out the window.

I think you handled yourself extremely well and did an outstanding job of researching your responses. Frankly, I would have lost patience (and probably composure) way before that…

I believe Joe was patient and was right to shut it down when he did; not long ago he would have shut it down immediately.

What worries me is how extremely polarized this nation is right now. We could really use (IMO) some well reasoned middle ground right now. Not sure of the solution for that one…

I think severely restricting for-profit corporate lobbying would be a great start. A good dose of reality & education for the masses wouldn’t hurt as well…

BTW, I’m unaffiliated (independent) and have completely become disenchanted with both major parties. I vote every major election and the candidate(s) I vote for are the ones IMO, and after a bit of research, that are the best ones for the job, and have the greatest potential to keep their party at bay. If anything, I lean slightly Libertarian with the major exception that my belief for a severely limited government is that the focus and funding should be for social issues and infrastructure. Taking for-profit major corporate influence down about 100 notches wouldn’t be a bad thing either…

I am a firm believer in the process and that everyone should vote. Unfortunately ignorant ranting (often by those who don’t vote) and corporate influence have almost completely hijacked the whole system…

[Scott G]

@jac 19610 wrote:

I dont want to start an international incident here:D…
John

Aww come on, John! Our Federal government is getting really good at that.

The atmosphere on the board has been pretty subdued lately. Maybe a bit of jousting would liven things up a bit!

[Scott G]

@jac 14717 wrote:

Hi Patrick.. Whats a bomb chute?? and come out with us for a few beers and watch the composure go west.:D

So…, why do Brits refer to things going wrong as “going west” and us Yanks refer to things “going south”??

Inquiring minds want to know….:rolleyes:

[Scott G]

@PhilG 19390 wrote:

Scott,
The rakes can be calced with the rise and run, if your rise is say 10′ and ( 16 risers @7 1/2″ ) and 15 treads at 11″ your run is 13′ 9″, diagnal of 17′ = 8 3/4 pitch = 36.03 degrees on your stairs with a complement angle of 53.97 degrees (now you see why prefer a sharp drawknife) So with a 4″ spacing to keep the government inspecters busy plus the picket of say 2 1/2″ thats 6 1/2″ of travel on a flat (run) on a 8 3/4 pitch that would be – 8″ 1/16 on the bottm/top rail (diagnal) and 4 3/4″ of rise from one hole to another. Divide the rail space from post to post and divide it and get as close to this number (8 1/16) as you can- DON’T forget to add in an empty 4″ space to the mix. I have mark out a whole rail and had the top one right up against the top post and had to start all over.
Then to plumb up I use a laser type thing PLS5 or 3 or any will do for this to get the center of the upper hole, even big brass plumb bob works great. rip a 1″ x 1″ on a table saw for a first run layout tool to save scratching off your good rails, as far as drilling angled holes the best thing i have found is a carbide tiped hole saw with a 8″ pilot bit, then finish of with forsner or self feed bit so the 8″ dosent drill out the other side, angled holes always want to drift the first 1/2 moon cut is tuff just hold steady and take your time, speed not preasure works best in the bit.
Hope that helps.

Wow, now my head really hurts!!

Thanks Phil, I’ll ruminate on it for awhile. The hole saw before the Forstner makes a lot of sense. I know just what you mean about the Forstner skipping around on an angle.

[Scott G]

Phil,

That juniper railing is way cool. The entire deck & house will rot into the ground before the juniper shows any sign of decay. Scribing with an existing tenon must be tricky while maintaining a consistent baluster & rail height.

On the subject of stair railings. I just finished all of my straight runs and now have two sets of stairs to do. I’ve built many stairs and conventional railings but the dedicated mortise & tenon will be a first. Laying out the correct angle has me scratching my head and makes my brain hurt. I can’t visualize using the normal rise/tread calculation and applying it to the railing. On railings I’ve built before I just set the rail(s), got the horizontal spacing and plumbed the baluster with a level. I then used a preacher to set the remaining balusters and it went really fast and turned out really well. Drilling out all of these mortises at the correct angle while maintaining the correct distance between balusters has me perplexed. I have been toying around with the angle guage but am thinking I’ll just set the top & bottom rail then come back and plumb the spacing, take the angle, mark/transfer to the mortises, and pray…

I’ve searched online for a standard way to mark out these stair railings but have come up with nil. The common theme I run across, which is what you are saying, is that they are “a pain in the ass”.

Don’t know if I think there is a more perfect day than spending it with a drawknife in the sun, even if it is wicked sharp. Guess its because I’ve spent way too many hours, days, weeks, months behind one peeling logs while looking at the large deck that still needs to be peeled.

I apologize to everyone else for taking this tangent on the thread. I’m currently immersed in mortise & tenon log work and jump at the opportunity to get answers.

On forwarding, those of you that have been here awhile know my thoughts. Mixed harvesting systems, specifically horses for prebunching trailside and a forwarder for moving mega volume over distant turns, are a slam dunk combo. The system fully utilizes both components (horse & forwarder) to their highest potential for the specific application where they really shine. “Forwarder” could be a bob, trailer, horse-drawn forwarder, farm tractor/trailer, or purpose built forwarder. Regardless of the forwarding system used, the key is to get the wood off the ground, in bunks, and on wheels/runners to move a large volume that otherwise would not pan out to be efficient when skidding. The smaller the wood the more paramount this becomes.

[Scott G]

Donn,

I’d take her off pasture, put her in the corral, and only a couple of decent-sized flakes of grass hay a day. Split it morning and night. EZ keepers can get a grass belly on them fast. Don’t know what your pasture situation is but if it dries up and slows down a bit with summer getting along a few hours a day would probably work.

The fattest horses I’ve seen are ones that are on good pasture constantly. Unfortunately, they have often foundered multiple times as well.

But as countymouse said, better than the alternative…

[Scott G]

I second the heat. Soldering iron doesn’t work well for me (maybe I just have a p.o.s. soldering iron) but heating a nail with the torch works great. Nice, clean holes in my nylon harness/tack that will not fray. With bio or beta I don’t know how the fiber in the core would do with heat. Does anybody know what it is made of? All of my beta is still in good shape and I’m not going to have a dissection lab to find out. If it is poly or something similiar it would melt clean as well.

[Scott G]

I used to use a skidsteer fo all kinds of tasks at the landing and sure wish I still had one.

I often loaded semi’s with one. I would build a low angle ramp on the cut bank side and with a brush grapple like Phil has pictured, nestle logs in the bunks no problem. This was a common solution when the log loader wasn’t around. Routinely used one to load posts & poles on my 20′ gooseneck flat bed.

They are damn handy for pushing up clean slash piles for burning and rehabbing landings. Put a bypass grapple on one with a rotator and they are extremely efficient for processing/sorting on the landing. Road building/maintenance as well. I demo’d the 300 series JD Phil has pictured, they are sweet machines when used within the realm of their ideal applications.

Phil, are you using the quakie for furniture or architectural wood? I just started using a ‘logman’ tenon maker with my 3 hp router for making tenons for a new log railing I’m building. Lot of fun and it sure looks nice. Has my mind turning as a possible profitable addition to the forestry biz using local small diameter wood harvested via horse logging. I did a google search and this stuff sells for up to $45 linear foot! Pretty easy/quick to put together once you get the hang of it and looks awfully nice. Way better than that dowelled/milled spec stuff you can buy.

Taylor, we don’t have road restrictions like you guys have back there. Plywood/other pads like Phil is using, if any at all, are fine for the outriggers on an A-frame loader on pavement. Most times the issue is sinking an outrigger in mud causing your heart to skip a beat when you are reaching far out. Many USFS roads are closed during the winter through mud season but that includes all traffic. Doesn’t really affect winter logging that much as the FS will make an exception for a logging/contract project. Most of the larger sales include a rock deposit (road base) that goes towards fixing the road. Otherwise, all other roads, County or otherwise, do not have general “posted” dates. Many of the roads you don’t want to travel with a load anyway when they are iced or mudded out. With the terrain out here many of our forest roads involve a “slide for life” section that can be hairy to say the least. I’ll usually avoid winter projects that have that issue. Nothing like having your heavily-loaded trailer pass you on a 12-15% iced out grade to cause you to have to re-upholster your truck seat (been there)…

[Scott G]

Matt,

First off, as I understand it, these horses were beyond rank. The owner (new) decided after the shoes were set that toe & quarter clips would have been a good idea. The farrier (mine) who really never wanted to see this team in the future agreed, but was not willing to go through the fight again, even with stocks.

The owner, who was a welder, asked if they could be put on after the fact. Discussion ensued and the thougt came forth that it would probably work if it didn’t kill them in the process. So… long story short the farrier pounded out some quick clips on the anvil and the guy welded them on. According to the story, the team didn’t seem to mind this and they lived. They used the same shoe they were working on as a ground. I would think that the laminae would stand a good chance of being cooked. My farrier agreed but he just as soon would have seen the horses drop where they stood before they became somebody else’s problem. Another one of my comments was that if the horses took a leak in the stocks (both geldings) they would have dropped like a rock when another foot grounded. Farrier agreed and was silently thinking at the time that scenario wouldn’t be a bad thing. Again, these horses were beyond rank and Brad (farrier) is one of the most patient farriers I know and a damn good horseman to boot. In short, it takes a lot for him to give up on a horse.

I couldn’t believe it until Kim (farrier’s wife) showed me the pics on her cell phone. Told her I needed to have copies of those. End of story…

Sometimes doing what it takes is what it takes. One of the outfitters I use to work for was a damn-sure product of the “old school” and one of the most ingenious men I have ever known. He started packin’ in the thirties when packers were packers. One the many solutions he found by thinking outside of the box was shoeing his pack stock, of which he had about 50 head at the time. Almost all of his stock was ex rough riding stock from the local rodeo cicuits that wouldn’t buck anymore. Even though the buck was out of them they were still tough as nails and made excellent pack horses. He devised a tilt (fly) table/chute that he operated with his tractor front end loader. We would push the horse into the chute, blindfold them, hobble the table side legs to the table (then vertical) and then lay it on it’s side. Two bars were then swung in that the two upper legs in turn were hobbled to. Four wranglers then moved in on their respective foot, each with an angle grinder, trimmed the hoof and tacked on a shoe. Horses seldom fought this system and as often is the case, settled right down when they were blindfolded.

Unconventional yes, but it worked really well and put to use very tough stock that otherwise a farrier couldn’t/wouldn’t work with in a traditional fashion that would’ve went to slaughter for sure.

This guy was brilliant and a horseman of the highest caliber. He truly cared deeply for his entire string but was a man who took efficincy to the extreme. Some of his unorthodox packing methods were incredible, but those are other stories…

[Scott G]

That’s just wrong, Tim……

[Scott G]

Matthew,

You need one of my neighbors…

[Scott G]

Back in the day, more often than not, coming out of backwoods basecamp after a week looking & smelling like Sasquatch to get groceries, diesel, etc.. and scaring the hell out of “normal” urban society. Complete avoidance, and mother’s grabbing their children in the grocery store, gave me sole possession of the aisles and checkout counter. Even scared them after I took a douse in the creek or the solar shower, maybe it was just me. I always figured it was good for them. Fellows at the saw shop and ag stores were the only ones who took me as somewhat normal…

OK, Stories…

A great friend of mine who’s been re-entering the stand for a few decades told me of a winter season when he was a young buck faller for another outfit.

The whole crew would travel to the very distant cut (2+ hours) every day in the crummy (term for crew vehicle). One of the fellows never took a shower all winter, was beyond filthy, and smelled like roadkill. The stench got so bad in the rig they kept the windows rolled down in mid-winter and everyone smoked big cheap cigars. They repeatedly warned & cussed at him and threatened him with bodily harm but to no avail. The woods boss wouldn’t fire him because they were having a hard time finding decent fallers.

Come late winter/spring when the ice on the beaver pond they passed every day started to break up they made their move. First thing in the morning when they came up on the pond they brought the crummy to a screeching halt and the whole crew grabbed the guy, stripped him, and threw him through the scum ice in the pond into the water. Tossed him a bar of soap and wouldn’t let him get out until he lathered up & rinsed properly. He didn’t show for work after that…

[Scott G]

@mitchmaine 18978 wrote:

Cruising a woodlot, fixing saws, working on machinery didn’t count.QUOTE]

The thing is, Mitch/all, that it does. This is one of the major things that financially burn loggers/forestry contractors regardless of what type of operation they have, horse/mule or mechanical.

It is your time, and time costs money. You still need to pay your bills, etc. as they don’t take time off.

It boils down to scheduled hours versus actual operational hours, if you are not honest with yourself on this you will get burned. I did, that is why I am somewhat of an evangelist on this.

If, when you are honest and look at your records (yes, while you are sitting in your truck during a downpour/blizzard on the landing put some pen to paper) and discover that of your scheduled hours you are only moving wood 70-80% of that time, then you need to budget accordingly, either by adjusting your rates or decreasing expenses.

It is a standard that you are going to have to maintain saws/equipment, horses, vehicles, etc.. and travel to bid on stumpage/jobs. It is all time that you are not moving wood but is an integral part of your business. Neglect any of those items and your business will suffer even though they do not directly deposit money in the bank.

I know you guys are wrestling with stumpage rates and don’t have much room to work with but that doesn’t negate putting pencil to paper to discover what the true costs are. It is usually scary, but very necessary to run a business. And yes, even the most low-overhead, low-production horse logging operation is still a business.

I’ll second the thought that even if it is miserable, you are better off to get your butt up to the landing. There is always something to do on a decent sized show such as working on equipment, doing some sorting on the deck, or just sitting in your truck pondering the job at hand. Doing something is usually more productive/profitable than doing nothing…

[Scott G]

Venison good, trampled/eaten peas & beans bad.

Venison for dinner with peas & beans so much better…

[Author]

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