[Scott G]

Hey Taylor,
That jack pine looks a lot like our open-grown lodgepole out here. The two species are very close cousins. Quite the limbing fest with little clear wood

I am getting ready to take a look at some closed-stand lodgepole (clear wood, self-pruned) in an area that hasn’t been high-graded and is on very decent ground. From the sound of it it could be a decent, fun show that pays OK. Traditional logging job that I won’t have to pay stumpage on. Just punch in some group-selection and small patch cuts.

My faithful post mill has never denied me. Small roundwood is about the only thing that is moving around here and pays OK if you’re in the right stand with decent volume.

Besides that I’m looking forward to doin’ some serious post-n-polin’. Kinda fun, but then again I’ve been told I have a warped sense of fun.

Now if the snow will just leave and the ground firms up I’ll be in business…

[Scott G]

Kevin,

My farrier and I just use standard two-part epoxy for blown out areas on the hoof. Whatever you use you want to make sure you have cleaned the crack well down to fresh hoof and get good adhesion. Otherwise whatever you put in there will just seperate from the crack surface and act like a wedge.

Quarter cracks can especially be a chronic nuisance. Often the long term ones are generated by a past injury/defect in the coronary band, where the hoof wall grows from.

Things that I have found that work the best are nipping out the sole surface of the hoof on both sides of the crack (if they are going to be shod). This takes direct pressure off the crack in that area. For thin quarter cracks superglue works great. Start with a clean dry hoof and apply the superglue liberally along the entire length of the crack. If the corral isn’t a mud pit reapply on a daily basis and often you can grow it out if the problem isn’t in the coronet. There were a couple of horses in my past that I worked with long ago that we had to drill and secure with cerclage wire, then epoxy. One turned out OK, the other not so well.

Draft feet in general have the notorious reputation of often being trashed and cracked. A lot of that can be attributed to the hoof care & shoeing job in general (although genetics come into play as well). They develop way too shallow of an angle over time and are held together by yet just another larger size bar shoe (I am surprised that we don’t see more navicular issues then we do in drafts from those low angles). The vast majority seem to get by like that, however.

When I first look at a horse, after an initial general observation of conformation and attitude, my eyes immediately go to his feet.

The old saying is all too true…

“no foot, no horse’

[Scott G]

Assumptions, Joel…

Fact is I worked as a ranch hand for many years in my young buck days for several ranchers on both cow/calf and feeder operations.

I’ve spent some time in the mud/snow pulling calves.

My daughter raises/shows market steers.

My first trip to school was for an animal science degree.

Enough said…..chill.

[Scott G]

@OldKat 17651 wrote:

So how did it go Scott? What were the prices like?

The draft horse market is back! Well…, at least for this sale. Average teams were going for $4-5k. Top team brought about $12k. Many of these teams were work teams, not show hitch teams. Most decent singles were bringing $1.5-2.5k. These prices are 2 to even 3 times what the last couple of years have seen.

The equipment lot was fullest I have ever seen it. People were rabid and the few odds and ends I bid on I dropped out of when the price was approaching what you can get it for new. This is normally not the case and you can pick up a few good deals on rigging & hardware.

The only thing I bought this year was a new heavy-duty adjustable collar from Harley’s harness trailer.

Wes,
Mules were actually going at low prices. A few of the really polished ones were bringing top dollar but all in all the interest was low and there were a lot of mule teams there. The opposite is usually true as the mules usually bring the better money. People wanted horses this go around.

In the almost twenty years I’ve been attending Harley’s auction this by far was the largest in attendance and in gear/equipment. Horse/mule consignments were in line with what we have seen recently, ~ 350 head.

I commend Wes on what he mentioned about being in the middle of calving season. As each year goes by I swear calves in this area are getting dropped earlier to grab the gain by fall. I saw one calving pasture where they were dropping full force in late-January. Most locals have pushed it up to mid-February at the latest. IMO that is just too damn early to be dropping calves on frozen solid ground all for the sake of weight by fall. I’m not a humaniac by any means, but that pushes my buttons. These folks end up with a significant percentage of sick/dead calves in the middle of winter. Your waiting until late-March to April speaks volumes to your operation and character my friend.

[Scott G]

It seems to be a given that having a piece of equipment with a front end loader is almost a necessity if you have any volume to deal with. Not much of a draft/manual equivalent for this one besides a shovel. Its not a cop out man, its reality. You are to be commended for trying to substitute draft power for every task where it is realistically feasible.

A big skidsteer is one of the most universal & handy pieces of machinery IMO.

I would equate knuckleboom log loaders for horse loggers to your situation. Any of those that move much volume and are looking for efficiency where they can are using self-loaders or the equivalent.

Draft animals excel at skidding, loaders excel at loading.

Maybe one of these days they’ll make mounts on a set of hames for loader arms 🙂 , but until then hydraulics are a wonderful thing…

[Scott G]

I believe I have went full circle and have come back to #2 ( with qualifications). Every day that goes by I realize how much more there is to learn. Probably will be that way until the day I die. I hope it is, as life is a lot more enjoyable when you are open minded and continue to learn.

[Scott G]

It would be nice to get some new chunk blood on this continent.

[Scott G]

You are now entering the realm of full blown skyline/cable yarding.

It involves a mechanical tower with multiple winches with at least three for main line, haulback line, and straw line (for pulling the other lines). A carriage is also used which may or may not be a slack pulling carriage and is radio controlled. It also uses intermediate supports like you desribe with ‘jacks’ if you are going over areas of irregular terrain that have significant convex surfaces. It is an art and science to lay one of these operations out.

Elaborate system that is the norm for logging steep ground in the NW.

Google ‘skyline cable yarding’ and you’ll find an abundance of information.

[Scott G]

I think it will be Hummers fueled by bio-diesel that is made from soylent green, imported from India/China and made from the masses…

Was it 50 or 55 when it was the end of the road??

[Scott G]

@Countymouse 17025 wrote:

I know next to nothing about logging, but I am fascinated by the mental image of zip lining logs. Is it possible to rig up some sort of braking system on these zip lines to make for a more controlled decent?

It does work well for smaller wood. Primarily post/poles and 4′ bolts for firewood/pulp. Anything over 8″ d would be too much for the small system I routinely use. You could definitely beef up the components of the system to handle much larger material, however. Arborists often use this to get larger material from removals over fences to the truck, for example. I saw an article several years back where some guys were speed-lining large sawlogs across a ravine using bull rope for the mainline and rigging blocks. I rig up 1/4″ wire rope secured at the toe of the slope to a tree and the uphill is secured to a tree as well, but with a come-along to get adequate tension of the line. The line is usually set about 6′ off the ground depending on what size of bolts/posts you are sending down the hill. For hanging the wood on the line, I know some guys who use long fence staples with one leg cut off to form a ‘j’ hook. Works OK for micro-wood but the staples pop out too often for my liking. My method is to get 1/4″ eye lags, spread the joint on the eye slightly to open it up a bit. I then tap it once into the end of the log with my felling axe and put my scrench through the eye to screw it in. Sounds involved but it only takes 15 seconds or so per piece once you get the hang of it.

As far as braking, I don’t worry about it. The tail tree is about 20-30′ up the hill from the road so that makes a pretty decent landing zone. Depending on how far you send the wood and what the grade of the hill is the stuff can fly, …literally. The wood usually comes off when it reaches the end of the line. I had one set up where I had to move the tail end back up the hill a bit as I was rocketing the wood airborne over the road and down the other side.

If you wanted braking I suppose you could create more deflection in the line plus/minus have a belay line going down to the load. That would take the entertainment value out of it for me though…

I need to start getting better about bringing a camera and getting some pictures. I usually am working in the woods by myself and it is hard to remember to take pictures (or even bring the camera along) when you are concentrating on getting the job done…

BTW, clarification on the aircraft wreckage. What I was referring to were small planes not helicopters. The mountains around here claim many amateur pilots of small planes that realize way too late they bit off more than they could chew at high altitude.

[Scott G]

@Joel 17019 wrote:

So are you thinning the doghair?

Mainly waxing it, Joel. This stuff is suppressed, runty pondo. This will be a true pondo restoration project as well as a shaded fuel break. It will be strictly a service contract with the exception that we will be whole tree chipping the stuff for our biomass boilers

@Joel 17019 wrote:

I worked under a helicopter at the landing. Very important to have a capable shovel operator that can clear the landing right now.

Absolutely, we will probably have two shovels as well as ~1 acre for a landing

@Joel 17019 wrote:

Unfortunately we had a few cowboy pilots that pruned every top on the approach to the landing

Won’t be cowboys for long. There are a few places in the hills around here that have clipped tops leading to a pile of recycled metal nobody will ever get to …

[Scott G]

Welcome back, Jason!

As an ambassador for us, I’m sure we were very well represented. This type of communication, networking, and fellowship can do nothing but further our efforts.

Are many of those folks bilingually fluent enough to transcribe/interpret articles from/to their native language to English? If so, that would result in powerful information for networking with a newsletter.

We only stand to gain by sharing information & techniques with our bretheren from overseas…

[Scott G]

Ben,
We definitely have the issue with broken terrain (rock fields & talus slopes) here on the Northern Front Range. I can tell you as someone who has spent considerable time in a skidder it doesn’t get any better and in fact, if it is large rock with paths through it horses are capable of snaking stuff out where skidders can’t. You can pull the mainline out on the skidder but with minimal lift you are still getting hung up constantly even with block re-directs.

About 1/3 of my 80 acre tree farm is ~45-50% slope that is pure rock field. By default it is my ‘wilderness area’ and won’t be logged due to inaccessability.

More often than not in lodgepole I have found that just about every stem in a rockfield has butt rot which ruins the first post. You being someone who has cut p&p up north can appreciate the significance of that.

I have rigged up zip lines to shoot 4′ bolts for firewood down these nasty areas. You want to talk about a piece of wood reaching warp speed at the bottom…

I am looking at a couple of rock patches that have some really nice old-growth pondo in it that is buried in pecker pole lodgepole. MPB is starting to hit those stands hard and I have considered removing all of the lodgepole to get some light & air current in the stands to make the nice pondo less vulnerable. Some of these trees are ‘yellow bellies’ that are 350-500 yo. It would be kinda nice to keep them around.

The rock patches are small, 1/4 -3/8 acre. Staring at it, I’ve figured I could set up spars with blocks around the perimeter and get enough lift to get the stems up out of the rocks and lay them down on the outside. It would basically be the same system I use for getting material out of holes. Probably wouldn’t end up with much other than a bunch of butt rott lodgepole but at least the residual pondo would benefit.

Building roads through this stuff is expensive as the mid-sized boulders you see above ground are just the tip of the ice berg as it were. Large trackhoes and powder are the norm out here.

Small yarders are probably the most cost effective option (and yarder logging ain’t cheap) for getting enough lift to get the type of material you are describing out. You need to get above it though, which means a road or accesible terrain to get the yarder. If you can’t get the trucks to it you can always swing yard it with skidders to a loadable landing.

Yoders are a fairly recent addition to the equipment option lineup. They are simply a forestry swing-boom track loader that has been retrofitted with yarding winches (straw line, main line, and haul back line) to function as a yarder. They work well for accessing the small corners of cut units where it doesn’t make sense to lay out for a traditional larger yarder. They also can be outfitted with tongs or a cluster of chokers that are swung in an arc by the operator and hurled down the hill.

I will probably be administering a contract in the very near future where we will have to use a bird (helicopter) to log this nasty slope that is a critical fuelbreak for a community. Expensive, runs about $2,500-$3,00K/hr turnkey. Extremely productive though if the sale is layed out correctly and you have very good fellers & choker setters as well as a landing that is no more than a 1/4 mile turn away and is large enough to avoid a bottleneck.

No easy solution to get to the pumpkins you describe…

[Scott G]

Here is a link to the cost calculation worksheet I was referring to earlier. If you don’t have an accurate knowledge of your costs or in this case, your sub’s costs, you are asking for trouble. Unfortunately most loggers run by the seat of their pants with numbers in their head. Relying on experience and constant knowledge of your resources and markets that usually works, for some folks. More often than not loggers run on what they think the numbers are (or should be) and get their ass burned in the process. This comes from a past of moving a lot of volume from my former mechanical show, friends. I had a really good handle on what my costs were (or thought I did), but often would go back with a sharp pencil and discover the ugly truth. This spreadsheet is invaluable for that.

I am currently working on a version that can integrate a horse component. That should be ready to go earlier rather than later.

To make this spreadsheet work, you need to know the operator prevailing wage for the area and the type and vintage of machine they are dealing with, as well as fuel costs, etc. There is a big difference if they are running an old Iron Mule vs. a brand new TimberJack, both in efficiency, payload, and cost.

Take it for what it is worth. My suggestion would be to pre-bunch your entire job trailside, if you could stand financially, first. With volume comes economy of scale, and when it comes to equipment operational costs, that is what makes all of the difference.

My standard has usually been to pay hourly. That scenario is only put into play when I know the operator personally and have either dealt with them in the past, or know someone credible who has. If you can get enough trailside, you can go the volume route for payment. If you have minimal volume though, the chances are that you are going to lose your shorts in the deal. Mobilization costs decrease the greater volume you can spread those costs over.

If you are going to consistently be forwarding material, I would follow the example Simon and others have, get a horse-drawn forwarder. It is analogous to paying rent vs. purchase. The money you are spending on Joe the forwarder guy you could be spending acquiring an asset. This scenario only plays out if you are moving enough volume and have enough wood in front of you, however. Otherwise, it becomes a liability. When I ramp up post & pole operations in the not so distant future I will be going this route.

Forwarding is the only way to move enough volume of small wood to make it economically feasible, IMO, if you have significant turn distance involved.

Here is the link http://sites.google.com/site/draftanimalpoweredforestry/home/machinerate-xls

[Scott G]

I’ve used a capstan and and know someone who has a Lewis chainsaw winch. They are slow, but are effective for pre-bunching smaller stems, dragging stuff out now and then. I know they are are fairly popular with hunters as well for dragging elk/deer out of the dark and nasty.

I’m biased towards the capstan winch as you can use an unlimited length of rope without having to re-set.

My favorite way to get stuff out of a hole is to set a block in a tree, run the rope down to the choker(s) and then hook on to the horse or machine on the flat ground, ideally a road or skid trail. I routinely climb with spikes so it is easy for me to get the block 30+’ up in the tree/spar. That gives you an incredible amount of lift when you are coming out of/up some of the steep slopes we have out here.

Another block as a fairlead at the base of the tree helps as well, keeping the point of pull/draft low.

This method is much faster than a winch, especially if you have two people.

Cost is an issue as well. A good block rated for rigging runs about $125 and rigging rope runs about $200 for 150′ of 1″ rated @ 10,000# WLL. I’ve had my set up for ~12 years and it is holding up great. Baileys or Sherrill are your best bests for purchasing this type of rigging.

[Author]

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