[Scott G]

John,

There you go! Its your destiny to introduce and maintain the Ardennes breed for North America!

I know you can do it ! 😉

[Scott G]

John,
About the closest thing we have over here of any number are true to type Brabants. I am a huge fan of the old school drafts. Some Brabants are definitely in my future…

[Scott G]

Yep Carl, thanks!

[Scott G]

Hey everyone,

Let’s post this topic at…

http://draftanimalpower.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49

It is a subcategory of equipment.

I hadn’t caught on to that when I made this post. My bad…

Carl, can we move this thread to that folder to avoid confusion?

Sorry for the mix up.

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Taylor,
Sooo.. your boys birthday is this weekend and the baby is due in a few days. Spend a little more “quality” time at home in February and a little less in the woods, eh? 😉

[Scott G]

Congrats John!

You’re hooked for good now. Great looking mare!

The only major thing I noticed right off the bat other than a happy man and a happy horse is exactly what Jason said, shorten up.

The closer you set your choker to the single tree the better line of draft and lift you’re going to get. You also gain a lot more control of the log when you’re maneuvering around stuff. I also shorten up the traces on the return to the landing to get a little more lift yet.

Have fun, be safe, and fill up the landing 🙂

[Scott G]

Carl,
I agree to a point. The basis of my statement was that many folks have no idea what the wood weighs and therefore, have a tough time judging their turns. Either way too light for what the animal is capable of or way too heavy to the point that the animal becomes balky and they wonder why.

I routinely pull significantly more on the flats than the example I threw out. It was based on an average on flat bare ground. I’ll pull heavy skids alternating with light, and give the horse a good breather afterwards. The truth is that flat ground is at a premium here and I’m rarely working on it. With a downhill skid I can pretty much pull the mountain down. Using a single works really well for the work I’m doing and the wood I’m usually in. A team would normally be overkill and wouldn’t allow me to sneak through some of the spacing I’m working with. The exception is pre-bunching to a central forwarding trail and using a team with cart or forwarding trailer to make the long haul back to the landing with a decent load. I’d equate it to the timber types & methods you see in Scandinavia. Every once in a while I’ll get a pumpkin and buck it to something thats manageable but marketable or use “mirrors & lights”. Its amazing what you can move/pull off with rigging (blocks, rope, high lead, etc..).

Often times, however, I am in the “all day, every day” mode. Especially if I’m working in a lodgepole stand. All of the timber is fairly uniform and of the same diameter class. Gets to feeling like an assembly line operation working the same type/size of material all day but I actually enjoy it. The elevation zone (high country), uniformity, and marketability of lodgepole make it my favorite type of show for the summer months.

There is no way of calculating “heart” and we all know thats what really matters when its time to “git’ after it”…

One other thing per your post, more of a question since you folks use a cart routinely and I’m just getting ready to use one for my operation: doesn’t the lower center of gravity, due to the weight of the choked hitch on the back of the arch/cart, lower the draft point if the cart, pole/shafts, and harness are adjusted correctly? Seems to me you would follow the line of draft all of the way to the choker & hitch… Just curious and always learning.

[Scott G]

“I knew a guy once that got leveled after my cousin told him to get longer line, stick of aspen hit a stub came up and drove him face first into the ground. He jumped up all scared like people do when they get knocked stupid but knot killed, looked around to see if the world was still there and went on his way to the landing. He got longer lines after that.”

Isn’t that why they call it “the school of hard knocks” 😀 It was great to talk to you last night, Taylor. Take care and life is bound to get better. 😉

[Scott G]

BTW Joshua,

I do not like to skid short logs (i.e. 8 footers) due to the tendency for them to flip up if you hit a stump, rock, etc..

The tail end can easily do an end-over-end behind you when you’re not looking and smack you or your horse. In the skidding world, bad juju…

[Scott G]

I currently use a single, spotted draft gelding 16hh, ~1600#. He is the perfect size for what I do which is primarily thinning work in conifers in mountainous terrain.

The general rule is a horse can pull his own weight. But that is very general and is assumed on flat, smooth ground. It is not the weight an animal should/can be expected to pull repeatedly. I generally, in my mind, think in terms of 1/4 to 1/3 of body weight for all day repeated pulls if the animal is in condition on flat ground. Uphill you are going to be very limited, downhill you can pull a helluva load.

In order to know what you can pull comes from experience with your animal(s) and knowing the weight of your wood. Out here I primarily work in lodgepole & ponderosa pine. When it comes to estimating weight I like to figure of off cubic volume rather than bf. bf is based on a scale (scribner, doyle, international) of “supposed” recoverable lumber. It routinely underestimates recoverable volume with todays mills and does not take into consideration, slabs/bark, trim, etc..

The pine I work in averages slightly more than 50#/cuft. You can calculate the amount of cuft in a log various ways. I use the Smalian formula (something I won’t get into per another post) which is a great down & dirty way for me. Again, with experience you’ll just know. At 50#/cu ft my single gelding can ground skid, on flat ground, a 16’6″ log that is 10″d on the big end and 6″ small end that contains 11 cuft and weighs 550# all day long. Downhill a load that is multiples of that is easily yarded. That is why it is said that the best show for a horse is a short distance, slight downhill skid. Uphill, much less of a load although you can use blocks in trees with rope/cable to get stuff out of a hole with your horse(s) up on top.

With an arch you can further your capacity greatly by reducing the amount of resistance/friction for larger logs and use it for hauling pre-bunches as well. A quality arch is in my immediate future!

Horse logging is definitely a thinking man’s game….

[Scott G]

As most have probably gathered by now, my interests as they relate to this forum are pretty much limited to draft animals, specifically horses, and sustainable forestry/utilization.

With that in mind, when I fully engage in a post, it is usually with folks that practice forestry and are familiar with the terminology. To explain something like “utilizing an uneven-aged silvicultural prescription” would take at least a couple of long paragraphs to do it right. That could create a post that is extremely long every time one was written. I do not have the energy or desire to do that. Any trade or profession has its specific terms to describe day-to-day activities. You understand draft powered terminology, correct? Imagine responding on every post every term used. Could get pretty long, eh?

If you have a specific question for a specific term, its simple, ask. No one is going to lambast you for asking, to the contrary, it should be encouraged within reason. That my friend, is the process of education.

Perhaps starting individual threads for terminology in the category Carl started a while back would be good. That is if folks have time to contribute to it.

Sit back, listen & learn. You will be surprised what you pick up after reading the posts after a period of time.

I voted on the poll. Absolutely no secret as to how I voted…

[Scott G]

Hang tight, Taylor. I’ll give you a call today..

[Scott G]

Amazing what they could pull off in the day…

I do have to say it is tragic what has happened to that uneven-aged forest, however. Most of it has been converted to even-aged 50-80yo stuff. That forest type is not meant to be under even-aged management, let alone high graded.

There are efforts underway to restore the various age classes/structure through logging. Unfortunately most of the genetically superior old growth is gone with the exception of a very few, small reserve set asides.

The forestry practiced back then (or lack of it) was all about high value volume and nothing else, read high grading & high production. In our interior forests it is pretty easy to bring everything back in balance due to the relatively short natural disturbance interval. Not so much when you are dealing with a landscape of organisms that are thousands of years old…

[Scott G]

Taylor,
Can you lease it out to someone? Just a thought, I’d hate to see you get rid of it especially with the smaller wood you seem to be in. It is hard to get to that level and you will not be able to get into another forwarder like that for the money you gave for that one. When you get back on your feet you’ll be kicking yourself when you’re loading by hand…
Congrats on the baby 🙂

[Scott G]

Simon,
I wanted to make sure I didn’t diss your comment & plight. It is hard letting crew go. It about ripped my heart out when I had to let employees go that had given their all to me and I had drained any/all options of being able to keep them on. Even though they weren’t family they sure felt like it.

So are there any amenity woodlands where you could do some service work to get by on? Is there any local market for some of the posts/poles you are cutting that you could sell direct and relalize a better margin?

Unfortunately, the history of the timber industry, at least over here, is one of boom & bust cycles. That goes back to my comment of the ones who seem to weather those downturns the best are the ones who are vertically integrated and diversified. We need many more smaller mills and less large corporate ones.

Hunker down and times will change. That is one benefit we have over conventional operations, low overhead and fixed costs. It is a lot easier to hunker down when you don’t have high dollar monthly invoices from Caterpillar Financial, John Deere Credit, etc.. Been there, done that, and it almost killed me. No desire to go back to that point in time…

Hang in there, man!

[Author]

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