[Scott G]

Estes is just across the “hill” from my place. Just a few miles as the crow flys…

That town is packed this time of year with tourists for the elk rut/bugling season.

Fat bulls with Snickers & Twinkie wrappers hanging from their mouths… :p

[Scott G]

Out here with Elk we quarter (or more) them out and use pack saddles. Meat stays much cleaner. Probably not too many horse packers in Vermont…

Ox nun,
The moose logging is a spoof that has been out there for a while. I still love the picture though!

[Scott G]

Here you go, Mark

[Scott G]

Burkholder Nylon Shop
LaGrange, IN 219-463-7129

Bought my nylon logging harness from them in ’94 or’95 after I got tired of the weight and constantly breaking my old leather harness. Virtually no wear, nothing has ever broken on it, hose it off and good to go. I talked to the gentleman on the phone to order. Shipped me exactly what I needed. Nice Amish family, don’t know if their shop is still operational.

Troyer Harness
Ft. Lupton, CO

Haven’t bought harness from Harley (except at auction) but people seem very pleased with his products and from looking at it up close and personal it looks like good quality. I’ll be buying a new set of Biothane lines from him in a couple of weeks.

[Scott G]

@Mark Cowdrey 11315 wrote:

Well ???? Any body go? How was it?

Mark

Mark,

From an e-mail from Jason and a thread on RH it went very well. Hopefully someone from this forum who went can weigh in. Otherwise check the RH Front porch at

http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/frontporch/index1.htm

[Scott G]

@Joel 11254 wrote:

Good luck on having the landowner fork out $ for TSI. The feds do have cost share available. Depends on how much one can take dealing with the sheep brains that administer the programs.

Joel,
I guess we are just fortunate down here. Most projects currently have a priority for fuels reduction and/or bark beetle sanitation/salvage. Once that door has been cracked open I can convince most landowners to look at forest management from a “big picture” perspective that addresses all concerns and results in a more esthetically pleasing and ecologically functioning forest. All landowners are not knocking down my door by any stretch of the imagination; but there is more than enough work to go around and I turn down significantly more work than I take on.

It is all service contract work. If there is marketable material at the landing I may buy it back from them, at landing rates, since they payed for the harvesting.

I do buy stumpage occasionally or perform “goods for services” where I trade the product for the work. It has to be some really nice material, however. This model only works when management is occurring for the forest’s sake and not purely for product. It is always a “low-grade” proposition.

[Scott G]

“I have also sold wood for many years as a bi-product of forest improvement harvesting operations. I have found that although the money seems better when split and delivered, it has to be, for up-keep of truck and equipment, and it is time away from the horses and the woodlot.” –Carl

The 10 yo splitter I have runs strong and requires very little maintenance cost for the 2 hours it takes to split/load a cord. If the transportation is to town (which it usually is) I try to tie the delivery into picking up supplies, tools, errands, etc. to further expense out the trip. Even though all of us would like to stay in the woods, the truth is that we need to market every wood product or service to its highest value to make a go of it. To be linearly integrated through the process, including value-added products such as processed firewood, lumber from the portable mill, etc., and sold at the retail level; I believe is key into making a successful business model out of what we do in the woods with our horses.

“Cutting and selling fuelwood log length is hard enough when it comes from a job that has logs, but when it is purely wood, it can be trying.

If I put out 3-4 cords per day and get $50/cd on the landing, I figure I am doing the minimum that I need. The truth of the matter is that we should be getting the same value for puling wood as we can get for pulling sawlogs. Same time, same labor, same expenses.” –Carl

True, Carl. Firewood, pulp, and woody biomass are by far the lowest value products to come out of the woods. If the revenue at the landing doesn’t match the operational costs plus profits to get the job done, then the net difference needs to be recouped for that aspect of the operation. “Low grading” generally equates to TSI, which in turn indicates costs should be born by the landowner or the agency as a forest management service.

”It is one of my pet peeves with the forestry community. Sawlogs always pay for low-grade harvest.”-Carl

Again, depends on what model you use. If the logger has to remove the material and is depending on the sawlogs to cover the deficit, then in effect he is operating at a loss. If the landowner is using stumpage value from sawlogs to offset the cost of the concurrent equivalent to a TSI job than that is a good thing. The landowner is using some higher value product to offset out of pocket cost for the betterment of their forest. That is a model that is becoming more popular out here when there are higher value products that can be sustainably harvested at the same time while maintaining/enhancing ecological integrity.

This goes back to a previous thread; the logger/practitioner cannot bear the cost out of pocket to enhance someone else’s forest. Even though it is counterintuitive not to work, it is better not to work than work at losing money.

Make money at the landing and then make money from a linearly integrated process, value adding to the wood you hang on to…

“ Landowners are footing the bills to keep the big mechanical operations alive pulling huge quantities of low-grade in the name of utilization. There is a lot of good timber that is cut before its time to “sweeten the pot” so that fuelwood can be affordably removed.”-Carl

If, as you say, they are doing entries before an appropriate rotation cycle, than that is a major problem. More from a forest practices/silvicultural aspect than a harvesting aspect. If that type of forestry is kept in check than the value of that material would increase and problems with operational costs would be somewhat mitigated. Being someone who is buried in the biomass world, I am constantly confronted with project developers that are pulling a feasibility cost per ton out of their backside. I am the first one to jump to the forefront and demonstrate that the cost to the landing is the cost to landing, period. If the product costs don’t pencil out for the project, than quite simply it immediately failed the feasibility study. Our forests cannot bear the brunt of an artificially manipulated market to justify an emerging energy source. That is why I am a big fan of small, local, thermal biomass systems and vehemently opposed to large-scale cellulosic ethanol and power generation plants and probably one of the most outspoken opponents, from a land manager’s perspective, in our region. They have to reach out too far for product, embrace an artificial, rotational sustainable yield model, and ship the money to out of area investors. There, now I’ll reluctantly step down from my soapbox…

[Scott G]

There are people out here that make a living with firewood, especially around the resort areas where fireplaces receive year round use and campground contracts. The norm, however, is that it is very tough to make a full time go at it unless you have large volumes of low value wood and large mechanical processors and contracts to go with it.

That said, I earn a substantial amount of my woods income from firewood sales, primarily to people that use it as primary or supplemental heat for their homes. This time of year finds me scrambling to get my firewood contracts filled. The phone starts ringing off the hook in late-August/early-September. I have quit advertising selling wood in 8’ bolts as I can make much more for the time invested in running it through the splitter and delivering it. I get $185/full cord, $105/half cord, delivered and dumped (20 mile radius). I’m not the most inexpensive wood around by far, but have built my client base and reputation on supplying a quality, seasoned product. I have a ¾ ton flatbed that has a dump hoist on it that works great for handling fuelwood. In short, firewood is a very important part of my income stream and during the start of the season (now) everything else in the woods gets put on hold. The usual transition is then to start collecting Doug-fir boughs that my wife then turns into wreaths for the holidays and sells for $35 a pop. 10 wreaths come out of a garbage bag of boughs, not bad income. That is the highest value “non-timber forest product” that we produce by far.

Taylor, as far as your question of comparing heating values and costs of various fuels you are asking a question that is right down my alley. Managing/promoting a sustainably produced woody biomass supply for thermal energy is a big part of what I do in the State, not only for the County but regionally. The USFS Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI has produced a fuel value calculator that is very easy to use. Go to the link below that is a calculation workbook. When opened, look at the bottom and click on the tab “fuel calc”. When you have that page opened, in the highlighted cell on row 24, enter the fuel type that the consumer is currently using (or would be the standard for what is available, i.e., fuel oil, propane, NG, etc.). That will reset all of the other fuel types to what the cost would be for the same amount of energy, efficiency percentages included. This is a very handy, simple, to the point method that I use to show folks, agencies, etc., the value of using sustainable, locally produced woody biomass for thermal energy. It is a great tool to sell firewood, chips, and pellets to prospective clients.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need help with the fuel calculator.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/fuel-value-calculator.xls

[Scott G]

Gee Carl…

Doesn’t it kinda make you feel like old growth when you’re still around to see your silvicultural prescription theory turn into reality? Just remember my friend, someday you will qualify as an overstory removal! 😉

I’m am so happy that the focus here is shifting away from always thinning from below and complete understory removal. People have finally come back full circle realizing that an uneven-aged stand is a good thing in every forest cover type except lodgepole. Now they don’t dismiss me as the crazy one who has always thought it appropriate to focus on the individual, ditching the strata concerns, even when treating on a landscape scale…

[Scott G]

I prefer using the flat rate $/MBF method as it enables me to present my services as value added to the land holding, at the same time providing some stimulus to actually get some work done.

I have to admit I also get wanderlust in the woods. As a forestry nerd I’m always hacking away at stuff looking for the latest bug or crud. A fair norm here is to bid by the acre for TSI, sanitiation, or fuels reduction work. I’ll estimate time/resources for a unit and bid a set price for what the landowner/agency want. That will take the “ride hard” factor out of the job. This is especially helpful if the unit contains some nice pocket water containing stupid brook trout! 😉

[Scott G]

@cousin jack 11030 wrote:

The problem is getting started though and getting a good reputation. The only way I could get going was to buy the standing timber and sell for firewood, meanwhile the wood owner has got me piling up all the brash, doing this and that, which is costing me time and money. Now, because firewood prices are rising he wants to charge me more for the standing timber, it’s hard work as you all know, but he just see’s what firewood is selling for to the end user and what I pay him, he dos’nt seem to equate the time, skill, sweat, fuel, repairs,haulage. What I am trying to say though is I have to put up with this to get going, and I am “winging” it at the moment, grateful for advice though 🙂

Ralph,
You start out with “X” for base stumpage value. Slash treatment such as hand piling, clearing social trails, TSI, etc.. all get get deducted from X as value added services. If you are buying the standing timber than that is all you should be doing, albeit with a low-impact harvesting system. All other forest improvement/enhancement practices need to be factored in as services and deducted from the stumpage check or paid for outright. Even though it is tough, stick to it and do not be afraid to say no to the landowner and walk away. I doubt there are folks offering your type of services knocking on his door to outbid you for firewood. If so, so be it. It is better than losing money. In my area people would think they died and went to heaven if somebody offered to do the work for the wood alone. It all boils down to the landowners values. Don’t sell yourself short man, you are worth a lot more than you think you are…

[Scott G]

Treat potential bids the exact opposite of how we practice sustainable forestry…

Take the best & leave the rest.

No job is worth going broke over. As horse loggers we are in short supply, find your niche and market the hell out of it.

There are people out there who want your services and are willing to pay for a quality job. Going for the high bid on stumpage or low bid on service is an exercise in futility. We just need to think a little outside of the box and be a bit more picky about the work we take on…

[Scott G]

Carl,
I too have a good mental picture of my current costs as to where I need to be in order to make it work. Usually on small service contracts, I can provide a quote/bid on the spot because I already know my current costs based on an hourly basis. If it is a small sale, a simple cruise and working the same numbers on a piece of paper will do. I do, however, go back to the ‘puter to check on numbers periodically or when anything major changes. The rest, as you know, comes from experience; Access, length of skid, topography, forest cover/timber type, landowner attitude, etc. all go into figuring out the final number. The same end result is the amount of resources and time needed expressed in dollars plus my wage.

Jason,
What I was explaining were outright realistic operational costs for the business. There is no question on why we do what we do and the values other than financial that we benefit from. The reality is, however, if you do not know your true costs and do not plan for sustainability through depreciation and a small profit (hopefully) you are going in completely blind and entering a very high risk situation. Those of us that have been doing this for awhile have a pretty good handle on this, even if the numbers were just ruminated on in our heads. However, if you find yourself with horses past ready for retirement, a dead truck, and you’re paying for fuel & feed out of your personal wages, the simple truth is that you are screwed. Business is business regardless. The ethics, superior services, etc. are the values that set a business apart from the rest. From a horse logging perspective, the superior low impact harvesting is a higher value service that is (or should be) shouldered by the landowner, not the logger. The landowner realizes benefit from the superior service and hence is expected to pay more for it. Whether that increased value is compensated for by a higher hourly rate, decreased stumpage rate, first right to return on a sale due to your investment, or being first on the list for referrals; it is the value that builds your business. There is a big difference between value and cost. If a logger truly does not know what his financial costs are and he is bidding out a superior service without solid numbers, he is walking on extremely thin ice.

In order to provide all of the benefits and services that we all know exist from an animal powered harvesting system, and enjoy their life at the same time, the logger needs to be able to stay in business and not starve in the process or end up in a financial apocalypse.

My thoughts,
Scott

[Scott G]

Geoff,

It depends on where you are in the State. Up north lodgepole is predominant so most mills are geared towards it. The dimensional mills prefer it for dimensional stability. Down south spruce and true firs are the predominant species used from higher elevations. The pondo from down south in the San Juans where I grew up are pumpkins and have very decent value. Across the state large diameter Doug-fir is very valuable, especially for larger dimensional lumber like structural beams. It all depends, like everywhere, what the local markets are and what is in demand. Small diameter lpp is in demand for p&p. Small-diameter pondo is a liability, although some markets are slowing emerging.

Even though traditional thinking regarding small diameter = increased harvesting costs = decreased revenue is normally correct, post & poles from lpp can be fairly decent money, especially for a small horse logging operation. We are paid by a piece rate. If you are only bringing a handful in and it’s a small mill they may pay varying prices for different diameters but that is not the norm. Usually you will get paid the same rate for posts that are in the 5-8” d range. The trick is to sort your wood and not send the 8”stuff to the post mill. A 5”d x 8’ post scales out to 5bf on Scribner (our local scale). Average dimensional mill prices locally were running ~ $280/MBF. That 5”d post gets me $2.85 at the p&p mill which translates into Scribner scaling @ $570/MBF! You can get a lot more 5-6” posts on a load than larger diameters. Conversely, that 8”d x 8’ post/log that I would get $2.85 for at the p&p mill scales out at 20 on Scribner and I would get $5.60 for it at the dimensional mill. It doesn’t take too many 8” logs to show up at the dimensional mill’s yard, however, until you get the evil & nasty looks. 16’ poles with a ~ 4-5” butt and a 2-3” top bring around $4.25 at the mills and much more if you sell them direct to private folks. You can yard out a lot of poles/rails with each turn and load a whole bunch of them on the truck. One of the aspects that make lpp p&p so attractive is that there is very little limbing in a typical dense, closed-canopy lpp stand due to self pruning. With poles/rails you can often fell, buck off one or two rails, buck off/slash the top, and you’re done (dealing with small-diameter spruce like you guys do in the northeast for pulp gives me the heebie-jeebies thinking about all of that limbing done for pulpwood prices). You can also easily hand deck/load the material so a single guy with a single horse can do fairly well by just loading his pickup or trailer and heading to town at the end of the day. You don’t get rich but you definitely can do OK.

The key to any of this is to know your markets well and pull off good sorts on your landings.

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Taylor,

This is a big question that many loggers/forestry contractors face. The short answer is along the lines of what Carl mentioned. Know what you need to make in a day, know your production, and see if the value of timber/services gets you where you want/need to go.

The problem is that so many people wing it and don’t account for all costs, depreciation, and realistic production. To know your costs and average production rates are paramount to surviving and hopefully thriving. To do a job at or below cost is at best just buying work and at worst subsidizing the project with your resources.

You need to account for all operational pieces of equipment such as saws, trucks, trailers, that new forwarding trailer you got, etc. Your horses, although not “equipment” need to be factored in the same way since they are basically the “base machine”. These costs include direct & indirect as well as fixed and variable. Very basic examples include items such as gas, oil, maintenance (including your time for maintenance), repairs, transportation, feed, shoes, rigging gear, and on & on & on. It takes a serious introspective look and time to do it right. The principles of business are the same regardless if you’re a horse logger or a plumber. You have to look at every aspect of what you do in detail.

Depreciation is something many folks completely overlook. Even though by strict accounting terms you can expense out something like a saw rather than depreciating it, you still need to account for that replacement value in your hourly operational rate to accommodate a replacement when it wears out. If you don’t, you are running that saw for free. Again, the same goes for your truck, horse, etc…

Finally, even though it is elusive to most loggers, you need to factor in a profit. Profit is not your wages. You are an employee of your business. In order for the business to survive at a static level, let alone grow, there has to be a profit margin built in.

Production estimation requires a high degree of honesty to one’s self. You need to factor in all your time which in turn needs to be accounted for and paid for by your productive time. You spend 8 hours in the field. How much of that time is spent working on other stuff than cutting and skidding? The other time doesn’t make you money but is still required for running and maintaining your business and you still need to make your wages. When I calculate a reasonable production rate/time I will then place an additional “get real” factor on it by reducing it to 80%, for example, to incorporate bad weather, bad days, unexpected circumstances, etc… This method has proven decent enough for me; I’ll vary the percentage depending on the situation, job, season, etc.

One of the most useful tools I have is a calculation spreadsheet that was developed by R-6 of the USFS for calculating stumpage rates. It is machinerate.xls and I used it extensively when I had my large mechanical operation as well as currently for my horse logging business, calculating out delivered biomass energy costs, rates for subs, contract budget estimation, etc. You can input any type of harvesting system that you want from a full blown mechanical CTL operation with a harvester & forwarder to a guy with a saw and a guy hand piling slash. You could take this and enter everything that you use from a saw to a horse and after customizing the cells for your purposes, come up with exact projected costs on a per unit basis whether that is CCF, MBF, Ton, etc.

When I have time…. I am going to completely customize the spreadsheet to accommodate a horse logging operation. Once that is complete I will make it available to anyone who wants it at no cost. Being someone that has learned the hard way I am a firm believer in accurately estimating costs and revenues. In my opinion, this type of information is essential to surviving, and ultimately thriving, in this business. You have to know your costs!

For now, if anyone is interested in getting the normal version of machinerate.xls and modifying it to their needs e-mail me and I’ll send it to you. I’d post it here but the forum does not support Excel files. There is a good tutorial and examples on the first few worksheets explaining how to customize it for your application. I’d be happy, however, to help out with hints after you get started.

Take care,

[Author]

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