[sickle hocks]

hi peyton..

i’m not saying i know anything, but i have made a lot of the mistakes that can be made and tried living lots of different ways, so i’ll throw in my two bits

the hour and a half commute each way is no good for the long term, i think you’re dead right about that.  i like that you’re thinking creatively about how to live the way you want to live and not just doing what the world expects of you.

i just hate seeing a guy get in a bunch of debt.  i know that you need to get started though.  i like the trailer idea.  i think trying not to throw money away on rent is a good idea.  those fancy horse trailers with the living quarters are really made for the rich horse people market, and they are priced accordingly.  I bet you could spend a third of that money and get yourself an old travel trailer to live in and an old stock trailer to move the horses..you’re a little less mobile as you’ll have to make two trips, but it doesn’t sound like you want to live on the road anyway.  You could build a little shade or porch around  the  living trailer and have the stock trailer free if you wanted to take the horses somewhere, and you can always sleep in a tent or the back of the truck if your taking the horses out for a weekend…fifteen grand less debt is an awful lot closer to freedom and i don’t think you’d be giving up that much value, put the cash towards the next step…..

family can get strained by this sort of thing so you’re aunt would have to really be on board with the idea…i’d give her a bit of rent money to help her out, and i’d try to be super helpful around her place, maybe fix things up and help with projects

but that’s just the way i might see it….good luck..

 

[sickle hocks]

George, I’m glad you had a chance to read the article.  I agree with Don that there aren’t any ‘mean’ bits.  But a shanked snaffle can be a confusing one, and for a horse like you’re describing that’s at a delicate stage in his training I’d think twice about using one.

When he was having trouble with a straight bar was your wife riding him in the snaffle during the same time period? I’m wondering if the least confusing way to get him in a liverpool might be to try a straight bar again,  maybe first in the saddle and driving single? See how he does now?  I definitely wouldn’t switch bit types when I switched from riding to driving.

Another thought..how old was he when he was having trouble in the straight bar, and what were his teeth doing then?  They go through some sensitive stages and the bar might have  been harder on him then the snaffle then.  Has he ever had his teeth floated?

fwiw….with those double bridles the dressage riders use, all of the horizontal flexion and gait control comes off the snaffle, the curb is set up up so it’s used just for vertical flexion..so you can definitely get some subtle control off just the snaffle

it’s kind of funny, my guys are in liverpools set to zero leverage now and i’ve been thinking i’d like to move them into snaffles….now i think i just convinced myself to stick with what’s working 🙂

[sickle hocks]

George,  I remember something like this coming up earlier here, but I haven’t figured out how to search the archives in the new format.  If I can find it I’ll link to it here.

Driving isn’t my main area of experience, but I would really caution against using a snaffle -jointed shanked bit…they send a very confusing signal and can really be problematic.  This article does a pretty good job of explaining why, though it’s written from a western perspective and they would call the bit a ‘tom thumb’.

http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm

I have heard people I respect say that a shank bit with a double joint or french link style is somewhat better in this regard.

If he’s going good in the snaffle I’d be thinking of keeping him there, and maybe rigging a buck back if I was worried about him.  But like I said, I’ve got a lot to learn about driving.  Maybe a teamster will have more to say.

[sickle hocks]

@ anonymous…about the point where you are planning the left turn and your young horse tries to duck right…it’s tough to tell without being there but are you sure it’s because he’s ‘asleep at the job’ or is there a ‘magnet’ for him that makes him want the right turn?  Is the right turn the way back to home,  back to the barn, back to where he gets fed or unharnessed, or where the other horses are?

You might want to check your assumption that he’s ‘ half stupid and doesn’t know what he’s doing’.  He may know perfectly well that you are going to ask for the left, and that you expect the left.  He might be throwing in the right to test you and to see if he can get what he wants.

If that’s the case, you can know when you are approaching a ‘magnet’ spot so you can be a step ahead of him.   If you are there ahead of him you can be blocking the right with your outside rein, and asking for the left before he’s tried.  Or you could mix it up and make the right your idea,  ask for it just before he throws it in so that it’s your idea, and then go on a little circle tour that way on your way back to the hay and the job…especially if he usually gets a reward for heading that direction (like the end of work and unharnessing) it’s good for him to know that sometimes you go that way and keep working anyway…

just some thoughts, i don’t know if that’s what’s happening and i’m not any teamster….

 

[sickle hocks]

Carl and Donn, thanks so much for taking the time to write. That was just like being able to sit down over coffee. Thanks both for some new ideas, and for helping me think more clearly about what I have been doing already. I’ll try to make this part ofmy work for the next weeks and months.

Carl, I agree 100% about not ‘making’ a horse stand. When they are standing all pressure is off. My thoughts on body language aren’t to use it to stop them from moving, it’s more that I need to be really aware that I’m not inadvertently putting pressure on through not paying attention to how I’m standing. Lessons from Donn’s round pen.

Also, I’m not really thinking of using tiring action as a correction to make the horse stand still. The horse already knows that standing is a place of no pressure, and that when I ask him to move he’s going to go to work. When the horse decides by himself that he is going to move, it seems like you’ve got to do something, so we also go to work. Not in a punitive way, just work. I feel like the horse ‘gets’ that if he stands the pressure is off, but if he decides to move on his own he’s not going to be able to just drift away on his own time, he’s going to be moving into pressure and going back to work. After we have worked for a while we go back to the spot, whoa, and he gets another opportunity to stand without pressure.

I like your idea on throwing in a whoa after each ‘ask’ as little breaks when the pressure is off.

@Carl Russell 40507 wrote:

To reinforce this I NEVER even think about touching my lines until I am ready to drive. I have had trouble with others, particularly novices, who want to take a few seconds to gather their thoughts before asking my horses to move…. that won’t happen with my team. They have learned that pressure is my time, and release is their time. As soon as there is contact on the lines they are on.
Carl

I needed to hear that. I’m definitely asking for those few seconds of contact before the walk and maybe they just don’t work that way… It was also good to hear you say not to worry about training to the lowest common denominator but to train the team that I want.

(ps they really Do the best job of standing when you’re ignoring them…had a ram out yesterday and he came at me while I was unloading the sled…i had to take him down a few notches and run him through the fence, it was pretty chaotic behind the horse but he never moved a foot 🙂 )

[sickle hocks]

Thanks so much guys, and thank you Carl for your feedback…it’s most welcome and it’s really nice to have a chance to work through ideas with others.

Carl, I’m going to be mulling over what you’ve written tonight…you have an interesting and subtly different take on things that I’d like to understand and draw on. I’d like to try expressing what my current approach is so that it’s more clear…it might help me get my head around the differences, i hope you don’t mind…

I have definitely been thinking of ‘whoa’ as a command to stop. I like riding western (stuff like reining or working cowhorse, not saying i’m any good at it) and so l like a hard, active stop on a horse. Obviously I’m not going to be asking for sliding stops in harness with the bale sled, but I just don’t like trickling down to a stop…I really believe that ‘whoa’ means stop, and stop Right Now…I like it off the voice with the rein to back it up if needed.

My next expectation is that the horse follows a command until I give the next one. What I mean is that ‘walk’ doesn’t mean start walking, it means we are walking…not breaking into trot, or dilly daddling, or dribbling to a stop. Same with ‘trot’, etc.. So I guess that my current thinking on ‘whoa’ is that it means stop now, actively…and then wait for me for the next cue…(which happens to be the same thing as standing )

I don’t really think a lot in terms of reward, and probably shouldn’t have used that word…more pressure and release. He might take just the voice, or maybe a bit of rein pressure, but as soon as the stop happens he gets the release. I like the old, ‘make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult’. So standing until there’s a signal from me is pretty easy, and they like that. Almost like a reward i guess. Walking without a signal is the wrong thing so we turn it into a bunch of work walking in the snow or backing up, and that’s difficult. Then we whoa and try again, and maybe he makes the right choice next time.

I’m interested in what you are saying about leadership and the horses being ahead of me, and needing to get ahead of them. I think that you are saying is…watch the horse, when it looks like he is going to break the whoa because he can’t stand it anymore, then get ahead of him and ask for the walk first so that it’s your idea…Does that sound about right?

These guys aren’t really anxious or champing the bit…they just know damn well when we are about to walk and they decide to do it a few seconds before I ask. I feel like I’m nagging them to correct this, but I really don’t want them making their own decisions. I’m a bit afraid of getting them sour on things.

PS..I couldn’t agree more when it’s said that we are always training. It just seems like anticipation becomes more of a taining issue when training during work because everything is so repetitive…sled’s empty, i bet we’re going to walk and turn around, and then i bet we are going to turn right at the shed and head up the lane, etc etc…I need to find some more varied jobs…hauled a dead calf 🙁 out of the coulee through the snow, at least it was a good learning time for the horse…

sorry to be long winded…thanks guys..i’ll read that thread on starting

[sickle hocks]

Thanks for your posts. I also think of whoa as a command to follow instantly, but the chance to stand afterward as a reward. If someone gets restless we’ve been going off trail for a circle or two in the deep snow…standing is a lot less work and seems to be preferred.

The other issue I’m having is them anticipating ‘walk’. If I was just training, I’d make things really random and tough to anticipate but as I’m working there is a certain amount of routine and they sure pick up on it fast.

After standing I move into place, pick up the reins and get a bit of contact and then ask for ‘walk’ with my voice and by turning my body ‘on’ (working without blinders so they are able to see me). I realized I had been turning my body on before using my voice and they were walking off that…it didn’t seem fair to correct that as I like using a sequence of increasing intensity cues for whatever I ask, so now I’m trying to turn on body and voice at the same time as I’d really like them to wait for the voice.)

Anyway they are starting to want to go when I first take line contact. We are practicing standing around a bit like that, or going off in a circle and coming back if they need to. Anything else I should be doing?

The boys had a day off yesterday, today I’ll try a baler twine check rein and see how it goes…

( i am a bit afraid that i’m going to create a team that only i can use without a bunch of retraining, especially as i’m careful about my body language and not everyone is or cares, which could cause a lot of confusion)

[sickle hocks]

Thanks Donn, I was hoping for your input. After today it became obvious even to me that something needs to be done. Ironically it’s only starting to become an issue as they relax more and get settled into a routine, but I don’t like where it’s going.

Do you dislike the geometry of how the hangers work or are they just a nuisance? I am happy with a long and low head carriage right now and really don’t want to interfere with that.

With a single check do you hang it on the outside of the horse when it is in a team?
I think I’ll play around with a bit of baler twine tomorrow and see if i can find the sweet spot for length and position.

[sickle hocks]

I’ve been trying to work a lot on ‘standing’ lately and bumped into some questions… I’m using the boys daily to feed, ground driving singles as they drag a small hay sled. They are pretty good at standing with dropped lines while i fork hay off the sled. I’m still taking a second to unhitch them each time so if something goes really wrong there won’t be a scary sled chasing them.

What are you’re rules on eating while standing? There’s the odd whisp of hay blown across the snow to where they are working. I have been correcting if a foot moves, but letting a bit of nibbling go…but I’m thinking this might be a bad habit and will lead to ‘creeping’ as well. What do you folk do…zero tolerance for eating or do you mind? I would rather not add gear like check reins or muzzles. I hope to grow them into a solid, useful farm team…my main priorities in a team are safety and a relaxed attitude.

(not as much horse-time as I would have liked while we were getting set up out here, but it’s settling down and now that i’m using them daily I think I’m going to be able to keep at it and advance them to where I need them to be…hope so anyway)

[sickle hocks]

She came in like a lion here…wet driving snow and a hard wind. The cattail marsh is drifted in and waiting, blackbirds will be another seven weeks. A northern goshawk cut across the meadow though, right on time….
it’s close now, we’ll wait it out…

[sickle hocks]

Thanks for your post, it’s interesting to hear that pack animals have been used in afghanistan…seems entirely sensible. I didn’t know about the Coast Guard patrols..the saddles are interesting looking rigs.

I know the military has a long history of working with animal power, that’s why I was surprised to see them throwing money at the robot mule thing which seems better suited to entertaining pimply star wars fans than getting things done somewhere like afghanistan. I was impressed to learn that the artillery horses were driven without blinders back in the day…

(no disrespect to the star wars fans, i like good sci fi too)

[sickle hocks]

i don’t know your vegetation down there at all…but do you think they could be ‘stones’ or pits from a local berry-producing shrub? if it’s something that’s common but not considered palatable for people you might have never picked one and squeezed it apart to see what’s inside, sometimes the pit can be pretty substantial inside a berry…just a thought??

[sickle hocks]

yeah, picking stones isn’t all that much fun…but it’s better with a team than a tractor..

[sickle hocks]

Well, i’m not going to make the first suggestion that springs to mind ’cause i don’t want to sound like a smart-ass…;)

[sickle hocks]

Plus 50 for teaching the head drop…I love this as part of the foundation. Sometimes a tiny, gentle side to side is a good cue on lead, and then release when you get a bit of a drop, pretty soon you’ll have the nose right down when you want, which is a relaxed horse. I also love putting on a heart girth pressure point that bends the horses head around to me (quite low down on the heart girth)…they will bend the right way instinctively, if you release right away you can get this really light too. It’s good for respect as well, if the horse is throwing it’s shoulder at you and counterbent you know where you are on the totem pole…

By the same token, don’t be rude and bend into your horse..some of them are really sensitive about that…hard to describe but you always want to open some space around your horse with your hips away from the horse a bit, make a bit of a vertical ‘c’ with your body, it doesn’t take very much to make a difference and they appreciate it. I’m sure you know this, but don’t face the head square when you are standing up there, you want your hip open and belly button pointed either at the shoulder or in the direction the horse is facing…too much pressure from your posture towards that head area will push that head up and away which is the last thing you need…

with you facing forward and horse head down and bent towards you (use the button’s you’ve added) you can bring the headstall up…let the bit hang under the jaw for now, you can use the off side cheek strap to block the horse from turning it’s nose away…then the thumb and bit part, and finally the ears….you can always go back to ‘head down’ and ‘bend’ but try not to lose the headstall’s position on the face, you don’t want to reward the jerk away with a release…if your horse will tolerate a hand on the pole, a gentle pole pressure with a bit of side to side and the other hand gently on the nose can be another good ‘head down’ button to put on, but it’s not for every horse

….all in a round pen like doe’s leap describes if you have access to one…

…anyway, that’s just what i do FWIW

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