[TimB]

Thanks for the responses. I’ll try to get a picture posted.

In the meantime, I got some feedback from a farrier friend, and a couple of other friends who trim their horses. The “from a distance” consensus was that it’s probably a hoof wall that was left too long and wide and had some mechanical stress. To that end, I dropped the wall down and brought it in by angling and rolling the edge. I also tried to balance the foot better in general…

She’s still walking fine after the trim. I’ll keep an eye on her and those feet and let you know. And, like I said, if I can borrow someone’s iphone, I’ll try to get a picture posted.

Thanks again for the suggestions. If any other ideas come up, I’d love to hear them.

[TimB]

Jen – Thanks for the advice and the comments. At this point, I think I might try the stall rest because he’s been resting in pasture for over 3.5 months now with no improvement. I’m just groping for something that might help him to heal and I wonder if being confined to a stall might help him to stay off whatever is hurting him enough to let it heal a bit… It’s a longshot, maybe, but I don’t think it will be harmful to him so I’m going to try.

Nearhorse – We did do flexion tests on both his front legs and neither seemed particularly different. His fetlock might have been more sensitive on the front left, but nothing very noticeable. I’ve also lifted his front left leg and pulled it forward and to the side and he seems fine with either… As to scar tissue, there isn’t much around the cuts, they seem to have healed well.

Rod44 – I do wonder if he didn’t hurt himself either getting into or out of the barbed wire. Or he might have injured himself during the healing phase, maybe he was walking funny to avoid pain and ended up causing some injury…

All in all, I’m just not sure what is wrong, what caused it or what to do. I’m going to have the vet out again; I’m going to have someone who does horse massage spend some time with him; I’m going to stall rest him (and probably give him butte, or something like that while he’s in the stall to see if it helps) and I’m going to spend some more time with him…

[TimB]

First, thanks everyone for the comments and questions. I’ll try to respond individually and succinctly:

Jac: I don’t think there’s any barbed wire in him. He wasn’t found tangled, rather he had gotten the cuts and extricated himself… I walked him in in the dark of early morning, noticed that he walked in strangely and found the cuts on inspection, while he was in his stall. I had the vet out to see him immediately. The vet cleaned and inspected the cuts that day. I think they are clear of any material – I also cleaned them and inspected them closely for the two weeks following the vet’s cleaning. As to the healing, the cuts healed well with only a small amount of scarring; the vet felt they looked good.
As to a farrier, we do our own trimming so I haven’t gotten a farrier’s opinion. However, we’ve been pretty on top of his trimming, so I don’t think his problem is in his feet (of course, I could be wrong about that…).

Jen: As I mentioned above, JD was already disentangled when he was found. I expect that the wire was on or wrapped around both forelegs as both of those knees had cuts (but only on the front of the knee) and he had a minor cut on his left shoulder, but the deeper of the cuts was on his left knee (which is the leg on which he’s showing lameness). There was no hair loss on the legs, except where the vet shaved for inspection and cleaning.
I am willing to put time into his healing since he is a good horse and so young, and especially since it is getting to grazing time (i.e. not having to spend money on hay for him). I’m located in Upstate NY, at Essex Farm. What would you check to indicate nerve damage and what would you recommend (i.e. stall rest?)?

Tsigmon: I don’t have a digital camera, so i don’t have any pictures to show. However, I don’t think that his toes are too long because we’ve been pretty on top of that in our trimming. My thought is that he’s landing toe first to compensate for pain that is originating somewhere other than his foot. However, I will look into getting use of a digital camera and, if I can, post pictures to get opinions on his feet.
As to his conformation, he’s not very wide chested but is fairly base-narrow.

Charly: I agree. The vet’s next step, though I’ve not yet scheduled it because I’m not sure how much money I can spend on vet bills, would be to look into the fetlock joint and then continue moving up the leg. Our vet is very caring and is a good vet, but he’s not a horse specialist. I’m not sure how wisely I’m spending my money by continuing with his diagnostics…

[TimB]

Carl – He is getting tense when we are walking in the barnyard during training. When he does walk by the pig area he is still tense, breathing heavily with those occasional sharp exhales, but, after a bit they diminish (not completely gone, he isn’t totally relaxed) and he follows. I usually wait until he has calmed down some and then, after a bit, lead him away. Sometimes I repeat the process completely, sometimes I walk him near but not as close, sometimes, I don’t go back at all. I assume your comments still apply to this situation – they make a lot of sense – but do you think, based on what you’re hearing, that he is “taking over my agenda?”

I appreciate what you said about establishing a trusting relationship by anticipating his reactions and leading him in places that he feels more relaxed in as part of the training. I’ll put that into practice. In addition to that training, how would you work on desensitizing him to the pigs?

[TimB]

Update: Both geldings are doing well. I would say there’s been progress, but slowly. The one in particular will still get tense and not want to proceed in certain regions (particularly near where our pigs are), but he does eventually go forward after being worked on (whether it is walking in circles, working on getting him to lower his head or hooking the lead-chain over his nose). He is also not trying to turn away as much and, in general, is easier to walk around on the lead. I think the same is true (that there has been slow but positive progress) for walking them in from or out to pasture when they are together: they are better, but I still have work to do on walking them together versus singly.

We’ve also had a couple of dry windows and some dry fields on the farm, so I’ve gotten to disc harrow with them. As far as I know, they had not worked on plowed ground before, but they did well. They were tentative to get into and among the furrows at first, but they went and, after that, they pulled well, turned well and worked well. It was really exciting to have two good work days with them.

Some of my next challenges are: 1) continuing to work on our lead line and other basic training as the season gets busy; and, 2) figuring out a good nutritional supplement for them – I think they are a bit underweight, and still growing, so I’d like to figure out an affordable and effective supplement to their largely grass, with some grain, diet.

Any suggestions/recommendations regarding any of the above are, as always, appreciated.

[TimB]

Thanks again all. Here are some responses to questions/comments…

re: the difference between creating a conditioned response and fostering a relationship with the horse where he is looking to me for guidance… The way I am approaching that is this: I am trying to work with the chain mostly to prevent the horse – a negative reinforcement – from turning away from certain stimuli (i.e. the pigs and the pig area), and in doing so turning me, which I can only correct after the fact by yanking on the lead line when I don’t have the chain in place. I am also, occasionally, using the chain to get him to move according to my instructions (i.e. if he is resisting forward motion, in which case I use it as a ‘last resort’ and combined with other ‘tools,’ such as getting him to walk in a circle). I am using our lead line time to try to develop his focus on me, to look to me for instructions and I’m thinking of the chain as a part of this attempt, one that fits in to discourage some behaviors as well as encourage others. His response has been, I think, good. I am already able to use the chain with less pressure and less frequently; however, I am a bit concerned about the aforementioned distinction (conditioned response vs guidance) and want to get to a point where the chain is not necessary… Does that sound like a decent approach to people, one that will develop a leadership relationship rather than a conditioned response?

re: my and the horses’ background. I am a new teamster, of a little more than a year. In that past year, I’ve used horses (3 different teams) on spring and spike toothed harrows, walking and riding plows, manure spreaders, mowers, rakes and wagons, as well as doing some skidding. I think I have a good sensitivity to the animals, but I am very aware of my “green” status (as for me staying calm and relaxed, I believe that I’ve done a good job with that. I am being reflexive with my training, watching both how the team is acting, as well as myself. I am working on keeping my demeanor steady). I am also fortunate to be working with three other experienced teamsters at Essex Farm in Essex, NY. The horses I now own are 4 yr old Percheron geldings, which I purchased from a farmer in VT, Jim Carpenter; he buys horses, trains and works them, then sells them. He purchased my team (in April 2009) from an Amish man he knows in PA. The geldings were (supposedly) used on a manure spreader and corn picker, and Jim has used them mostly to haul wood (split wood by sleigh).

re: fear vs new situation – I agree with Donn’s comment that the team is, at least in part, dealing with a new situation issue (not simply fear alone). I visited them and worked them on the VT farm a number of times (both alone and with my more experienced teamster co-workers) and they drove well and showed none of the responses that I am now seeing. I brought them to Essex a little over a week ago. So, they are now dealing with many new things (i.e. the pigs, the butchering area, flapping metal on a roof, etc.). And I appreciate what you said about the blending of fear and assertive behaviors – it makes a lot of sense.

Also, thanks Jen and grey for the comments re: positive reinforcement by pressure release.

And, again, thanks so much for everyone’s continued helpful comments. I really appreciate them.

[TimB]

Thanks so much for the helpful comments. I’m sure to find many of the techniques useful as I keep working this new team. Here are a couple responses to some of the questions that people asked, as well as a summary of some of what I’ve done in the meantime:

I don’t believe that he is being particularly “buddy sour,” although I do think he is more comfortable when his ‘buddy’ is present. In light of this, I am sometimes working him individually and sometimes I work he and his buddy with a partner, we bring both horses out together – seeing his buddy walk ahead and get near to a building, equipment, etc… seems to give him more confidence to do the same.

The fear responses that I’m seeing are: he becomes very upright and tense, ears perked, eyes wide, he occasionally gives a sharp exhale from his nose (sounds like a deer), and he gets a fidgety/prancy. He does occasionally attempt to put his nose toward me/against me when we’re on the lead line (I am discouraging this). He also turns quickly and pulls me occasionally, but has always stopped after a couple of yanks on the lead. However, I want to say, all of these responses have improved, just over the past few days. I’ve been walking he and his buddy, mostly individually, around the barnyard to get them desensitized and he’s responding well. I do believe that he is a mellow, gentle horse – very calm in other situations, great stall manners, good to drive- but that he is in a new environment, and is afraid.

That said, I also understand that he should be looking to me for directions rather than getting scared and overpowering me in trying to get away. To this end, it was recommended, by someone I work with, that I thread a chain over the top of his halter (rather than clipping it to the bottom); whenever he exerts himself against the lead line it pressures the top of his nose. He is no longer turning around and pulling away from me. Do people think this is a good technique? I’m trying to be conscious of the pressure it exerts, and I’m only using it when he is being too powerful/stubborn – I don’t start with it running over his nose, but switch to that after he shows me that he is not looking to me for direction (i.e. he pulls me around when he is trying to get away from something), then, once he is walking with me calmly, I reclip to the bottom of the halter… I’m hoping that this shows a level a control, but also trust and reward for good behavior. Thoughts?

[TimB]

Pete – I’m interested to hear some more about the team. I’ll try giving you a call tomorrow (1/26)

[TimB]

Thanks so much to everyone who has responded to my original post. I really appreciate your suggestions and leads. I’ve contacted some of the people and checked out the sites you’ve suggested. The search continues.

Any further suggestions/advice are welcome. Thanks.

[TimB]

If it isn’t a hassle for you to find their contact information I’d definitely get in touch with them. I figure the more people I talk to, the more horses I hear about and/or get to see, the better. Thanks.

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