Composting Andy – A Percheron Gelding

[sanhestar]

I’ve never done it with an animal as big as a horse but have composted lambs and cats and – many years before – horse feet for educational purposes: wanted to have the cleaned bones to show in anatomy classes.

The only problem with the horse feet was that at that time I had a couple of younger girls (18 or so) having their horses stabled in the same barn. The old farmer was ok with me digging in the horse feet in the manure but when the girls found by accident one of the feet they came running screaming “there’s a horse buried in the manure!”

[near horse]

I’m sorry Howie but I find destroying cattle because the price isn’t good an atiquated solution. Why doesn’t this guy pour his milk down the drain since those prices are in the crapper right now as well? If a dairy out here milking 4000 cows can deal w/ lousy calf prices then so can someone milking 200.

[HTML]He sent three of them a couple weeks ago and got a bill for $28 and something. [/HTML]

Somebody there is picking up calves at almost no cost and making money – and eventually those calves will end up at the packer along with other cattle.

Although this isn’t composting it is about decomposition – the body farm (as it’s called) in TN takes human corpses and lets them decompose in the elements for forensic study – they know how long it takes to completely breakdown a body. The compost pile provides a “more stable” environment and is less subject to daily changes in temp, humidity …. BUT it doesn’t get the benefit of “insect assisted decomposition” 😮

[HTML]You define whether you are a “real” farmer, as you put it… no one else can, should, or should be allowed to, define you.[/HTML]

Well said, Robert. Recently I heard that the govt thinks you are a hobby farm if you gross less than $250,000. Please! As far as I’m concerned, there are a lot of folks that meet the above “definition” of farmer that are more office managers. They have nice pickups, expensive equipment, lots of land, and hire everything out. They never touch an animal, fix equipment, work the soil or harvest anything – they pay someone else to do it but they are considered farmers. Those guys aren’t farmers to me. Except they do know how to farm the govt programs but that’s another story.

[dominiquer60]

At least Howie’s neighbor is getting money for his milk, that is why it is not going down the drain. From a strictly financial and nutrient accounting point of view his neighbor is loosing both money and nutrients with every bull calf that he gets a bill for because he sent it to the sale. It is worth more to the farmer to keep the calf and use him to feed his crops than to get a bill for him. You can argue that the farmer is also loosing money on his milk, but at least he is still recovering some of his costs of producing the milk. Having to pay $7 a calf to get rid of them and loose the nutrients is as useful as banging your head against the wall.

[near horse]

Erika,

Sorry – I just don’t buy it. Composting a calf gets very little of the nutrients back that you invested in generating that animal so that’s little consolation –

Be a little more creative than knock ’em in the head. Hell, put them in a pen out by the road w/ a sign “free calves”. Have another plan to deal with bull calves when prices are down. To me this is more about frustration than economics.

It is worth more to the farmer to keep the calf and use him to feed his crops than to get a bill for him.

I agree!!! So don’t take them to the sale.

You can argue that the farmer is also loosing money on his milk, but at least he is still recovering some of his costs of producing the milk. Having to pay $7 a calf to get rid of them and loose the nutrients is as useful as banging your head against the wall

I think losing money on your milk is still banging your head against the wall. And paying $7 to get rid of a calf might seem pretty insignificant in comparison. Break even milk prices (whatever that means) are around $16 per hundred weight – at that point you’re doing it for free. Prices are near that right now and headed down. I don’t know if you’re aware but pouring down the drain is exactly what dairymen did to protest low milk prices back in the 30’s? and resulted in the current subsidized milk pricing system we see today.

[dominiquer60]

That’s all fine, but in the end individual farmers are going to do what they think is best for their situation. Maybe that guy would like to try raising them as veal calves, but he doesn’t have the money for even a low input facility. Until you are in that mans shoes it is hard to criticize him fairly. There is more than one way to do anything and it is up to each individual farmer to do what is best for themselves.

Erika

[Howie]

The farmers here are getting $10 and something for milk, that is a long way from the break even price. We had several veal growers around here but they are not making a go of it. When I was a kid before the WWII calves here were so cheap we knocked them in the head and sold the hide. We are in the same situation now except you can’t get anything for the hide.

[Plowboy]

Probably 15 years ago when Jersey calves were worthless a farmer near here took two with him in a calf box on his pickup to the sale barn. While he went in to watch the sale he put a sign on the calf box that said “Free Calves”. When he came back out he had 5 instead of 2! Too bad about the current situation.A year or so ago a nice started Holstein bull calf around 100# would bring as much as $150. My Dad has a couple around the barn that need to go but he’ll wait until he’s going that way so he doesn’t go in the hole for gas.

[Robert MoonShadow]

I agree. Erika, that you cannot (usually) judge someone without knowing something about them (standing in their shoes). I also agree that it makes no sense to sell at a loss. I think they are narrow-focused, though. There isn’t a food bank in the country that wouldn’t take the free meat. Donate the bull = tax deduction of standard value –> list it as a calf – sex doesn’t matter, so it’s valued as same as a heifer calf – and take a small bit of time, persuade a local butcher shop to donate their time/expertise (tax deduction for them then, too) & give the unwanted bull calf to feed the hungry neighbor. It would take but just a bit of time & effort, you (the dairyman) solve a problem, get a tax deduction, act in a socially responsible & caring manner… commiting a deliberate act of kindness & form a very real sense of community with the butcher and the homeless/poor/needy person. If someone (government entity) puts an obstacle in the way… then just do it on a personal (anonymous?) level – butcher it yourself & give the meat to someone you know that needs it – unless maybe you don’t know of any poor people?

Can anyone pick this idea apart?

I wonder, sometimes, where the difficulty is, in coming up with common-sense solutions… ‘cuz I ain’t no genius, myself.

[Andy H]

Can you put to much composted manure on a garden? It is about a year old.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Andy; The precise answer to that would be…”it depends”. Sorry, but it would be based on the nutrient levels already present in the soil, the nutrients in the compost (which is based on the original ingredients, composting style, etc.) and what you plan to grow in it. I’m not sure back East, but out here, the County Extension agent and/or the land-base college will help with getting your soil tested for a nominal fee. Test the compost, too. But most soils that have been farmed chemicaly over the last 50 years are depeleted to some extent, and unless you have an unusual amount of something in your compost, then, no, it’s not going to be too much -> if it’s well-composted, that is. ATTRA has a whole series of booklets/PDF files that will help with that. Watch for runoff into streams, etc. Last year I put a 3″ deep layer on all my rows & beds on this acre I’m farming; I can already see the difference in the tillage when I began my Spring discing yesterday. If you broadcast it (for like grain crops, etc.) the weeds will take advantage, too. Bottom line is: listen to your soil, it’ll tell you what it needs, if you can learn to hear what it says.

[dominiquer60]

Andy, In general, if the compost is cool and broken down into an earthy substance and you can’t identify what is used to be, spread away.

Robert, I wouldn’t want to kill calves and compost them either. I would really try to think of better things to do with them, however if I did handle them in this manner it would be the best solution that day given my time, energy and bigger priorities. Your idea is very generous, however newborn calves have very, very little food value to humans, they really need to be raised as veal calves to be useful to a food pantry, and I don’t see many having the time or money to take on a veal calf project. I know in our area there is a family that owns the largest feed lot in NY, they will often buy veal calves and pick them up, again they need have a few months of milk put into them and preferably weened already. It can take a good deal of effort to raise veal calves, or not it varies from farm to farm depending on the situation and amount of labor and space. If I was a kept woman and had a lot of free time on my hands I would collect calves and train them up and or start a 4-H club or something. I don’t ever plan on being a kept woman, but I can dream of starting a 4-H club anyway. I can easily see a stressed out farmer deciding to take responsibility for his bull calves by making sure that they don’t suffer long and cost him a bill to get rid of them.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Dominiquer60 ~ I think you’re going a bit beyond my point… I’m not talking about a profit/loss margin here… if you’re going to kill it anyways, salvage the meat – even a newborn has meat on it – even if it’s only 10 lbs., its 10 lbs. of hamburger that’ll feed a hungry family of four for half a week. Put it this way: take that calf over to Ethiopia or Darfur & see if they can find any food value in it. We, as a society of plenty, tend to, as a whole, see & judge things by that standard. To a dairyman (or -woman) who has 20 – 50 – 200 – or more head of dairy cattle that they could eat on if they were hungry, they don’t see value in a little bull calf. And to them, in their situation, they’re right. I’ve been 3 days without food. I’ve also, as a landscaper, faced a 5-month seasonal layoff with 2 kids to feed. Different situations, different perspectives… different values. I’m just putting out an alternative solution to the problem. This isn’t just something I thought up while reading this post. {I’m not that smart a guy}. It’s the type of thinking that I learned, listening to my grandparents talk about how they raised their kids during the Depression (the other one, not the one we’re in now). I just don’t seem to buy into the throw-away mentallity of our culture. Bull calves – any farm animal -are not a throw-away type item. They’re just unwanted. So were draft horses, oxen, and donkeys. But there’s a difference between ‘valueless’ and ‘inconvienient’. The way I see it is this: if you choose to raise/breed animals, then you choose to accept the responsibility for all your animals – not just the ones that can make you a profit.

[near horse]

if you choose to raise/breed animals, then you choose to accept the responsibility for all your animals – not just the ones that can make you a profit.

Kudos to you, Robert!!! Killing healthy bull calves is not being a responsible herdsman. And neither is starving them. I really like your community level idea(s). To paraphrase Reagan:eek: “we don’t have a food shortage, we have a food distribution problem.” There are those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and those that wonder what happened.

In another month or so when things start to green up, lots of folks start looking for something to graze. The buyers who come around and buy all the bull calves when prices are good should have to forward contract those purchases so when times are lean, they can’t just walk away and leave the dairyman with kill ’em or starve ’em as the only options. This is another “problem” w/ the agribusiness model. People jump into an ag enterprise when it gets hot, end up flooding the market, drive prices down and then jump back out. Meanwhile, the guys that worked their butts off to build the market barely get a return before the prices drop. I’ve seen it with everything from hay to organic veggies and CSA’s.

[near horse]

Probably 15 years ago when Jersey calves were worthless a farmer near here took two with him in a calf box on his pickup to the sale barn. While he went in to watch the sale he put a sign on the calf box that said “Free Calves”. When he came back out he had 5 instead of 2!

Lucky he didn’t take them into the city instead of the sale barn. Then he would have come back to find his 2 calves there in the box but his pickup gone!

[Git-Up-Doc]

here in Atlantic Canada on PEI it is illegal to deadstock compost. The reason is because the water table is so close to the surface is most spots it could contaminate the water.

I am all for deadstock composting, however I have never even thought about trying to compost a fully grown horse. At a farm I worked we always composted the calves which died, nothing bigger.

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