Elephants vs Horses?

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  • #39692
    Gabe Ayers
    Keymaster

    This is an email I received recently. My response follows and I am yet to get a response so I will keep it anonymous for now.

    Dear Sir:

    You mention use of elephants among draft animals with respect to forestry. Is that correct?
    My question is: How many draft horses are equivalent to one Indian elephant with respect to pulling power? I use the term “indian elephant” since domesticated elephants are rare if not nonexistent in Africa, the science having either died out or gone underground on the African continent.

    Note that the Mahabharata makes reference to elephant power rather than horse power with respect to engine and weaponry capacity.

    Can you answer this question? Your kind attention is greatly appreciated.

    Sincerely yours,

    My response:

    Dear ,

    What a wonderful question. Mostly because it means someone is reading our material and interested in the subject.

    There was an article in the Draft Horse Journal a while ago (years) that compared the pulling capacity of an Indian Elephant and draft horses. The measure then was by the scales and the equal animal weight of horses versus elephant was a victory for the horses, They could pull more weight pound for pound. The same comparison would give the same results with ponies versus draft horses. But in the elephant versus horse scenario is a comparison of apples and oranges, they are different fruits…and not fairly comparable.

    However there are other reasons why that is not a valid comparison in my view. There is more to logging with an elephant than the pulling power required to move logs across the ground. Mainly in that the elephant is not only a “skidder” but also a “loader” in that they can handle reasonable sized logs with their trunk and tusk and can stack logs on a landing or a truck.

    I am sure they could also be trained to move logs around for an on site sawmilling situation or what is referred to as value adding raw logs into green wet lumber. So a comparison of the to types of animal power is not possible in that the horses are primarily a tractive power application and the elephants have functional appendages beyond any equine anatomy.

    Our inclusion of elephants in the support of animal powered forestry was primarily based on a proposal to use elephants in the forest of India and Malaysia. We had at one time proposed to import Mahouts to work retired circus elephants in the thinning of pine plantations in the southeastern U.S. where the weather suited their need for warmer climates and the dominant forestry practices were plantations of southern yellow pine that were often over stocked and to close together. I am sure the elephants and a hand felling method could thin, collect and bunch this useable material in a very energy efficient manner. We have aliens from the southern part of the Americas flooding our country and providing labor for agriculture and any other need for low paying work that Americans won’t do, so having some Mahouts come in and manage elephants would be no different.

    The use of animal power in the forest is a matter of energy efficiency or using less oil to address human needs for forest products. The animal powered technique as a part of restorative forestry silviculture creates what we consider a “carbon positive forestry practice”, meaning we store more carbon in the bodies of the maturing trees and use less fossil fuel in the process and thereby help mitigate the impact of climate change that is now undeniably linked to fossil fuel use and deforestation.

    I hope this helps with your question.

    Now, do you mind if I share this question with a chat board located at: http://www.draftanimalpower.com It will be interesting to hear if there is a response from the members.

    You may let me know what you think. How did you find our site and the reference to elephants as a form of animal power in the forest.

    Warm Salute,

    #46999
    bivol
    Participant

    here’s what i found: a bull elephant pulling a 3-tonn log. if the elephant has about 5 tonns, it’s easy to see how many horses would be needed.
    44279e06.jpg

    good points:
    1)actually, elephants are more vertisale than either horses, mules or oxen at logging, because these species can only pull logs, and elephants can pull carry, push, and sort logs.
    2)another advantage of elephants is ease of harnessing: they need only a breast strap and a back pad
    [IMG]http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YpyRdS6ix2s/Rij85L9R7wI/AAAAAAAAAaw/bY7XmIRtzsU/IMG_0532.JPG[/IMG]

    3)drivers can work from the back, from behind and from the side
    6c7e5c14-f2e4-4627-a657-069b73215469.hmedium.jpg

    disadvantages:

    1)the main disadvantage is that elephants are NOT domesticated, they are tamed wild animals. this means no selection work was done to reduce aggresiviness and to get a more reliable animal.
    2)bull elephants cannot be castraterd without an operation. but more, they enter a phase known as “musth” when their sexuality awakens and they are extremelly aggressive and tend to dominate everything around. an experienced mahout knows when his elephant is entering this phase and the only way is to chain the elephant to something solid.
    3)elephants have slower reproduction and growth cyrcle than horses and mules, and are rarelly bred in captivity because an elephant matures too slowelly.
    4) oh yeah, they also eat 500 pounds of roughage every day, and drink a lot of water.

    66853080NCtJJI_ph.jpg
    a bull elephant in musth.note the liquid substance flowing down the feet. this secterion makes them extremelly angry.

    #46997
    goodcompanion
    Participant

    @bivol 2262 wrote:

    here’s what i found: a bull elephant pulling a 3-tonn log.
    disadvantages:

    1)the main disadvantage is that elephants are NOT domesticated, they are tamed wild animals. this means no selection work was done to reduce aggresiviness and to get a more reliable animal.
    2)bull elephants cannot be castraterd without an operation. but more, they enter a phase known as “musth” when their sexuality awakens and they are extremelly aggressive and tend to dominate everything around. an experienced mahout knows when his elephant is entering this phase and the only way is to chain the elephant to something solid.
    3)elephants have slower reproduction and growth cyrcle than horses and mules, and are rarelly bred in captivity because an elephant matures too slowelly.

    [/quote]

    Too bad. I’ve always wanted a skidder/loader combo in a draft animal. Maybe one that could pull a harrow while simultaneously operating a broadcast seeder with the trunk, or pick rocks and lob them out of the field.

    @bivol 2262 wrote:

    4) oh yeah, they also eat 500 pounds of roughage every day, and drink a lot of water.

    [/quote]

    Yes, but on the other hand they can also store up and shoot that water. Which would have great application in watering-in veggie transplants or retaliating to disgruntled motorists when on public roads.

    Eleven or twelve square bales a day seems a very modest upkeep for such a majestic beast. Who isn’t inspired by the two-tone trumpet blasts of a team of draft elephants lurching into motion as their teamster expertly guides the 16-bottom plow into the rich earth? Working horses are much too pedestrian.

    #47000
    bivol
    Participant

    well, you see, goodcompanion, if you keep female elephants, and provided they weren’t abused by previous owners, you can get what you wanted for logging or plowing. riding an 8 feet high elephant while plowing is certanly more unique than driving horses. elephants are a comitement, but i guess if one has other animals this adition should be no big problem.but, elephants can be plodders.:(

    Image8.jpg

    610x.jpg
    i think this on the picture is a female elephant. they are calmer.

    610x.jpg

    but horses and mules unfamiliar with sioght and smell of elephants can panic in their presence.

    here’s a real article i found, from NY times:

    [HTML]In Asia, the elephant is used for all manner of labor, perhaps most notably for hauling logs in areas where tractors cannot go. But Africans have traditionally steered clear of their elephants, a bigger, more skittish breed that kills people every year and is widely believed to be untamable.

    So it was not all that surprising that the visitors from Zimbabwe’s Institute of Agriculture Engineering kept a good distance and even a car or a tree between themselves and Nyasha recently when the four-and-half-ton, 10-foot-tall adolescent elephant was busy plowing.

    ”It is looking as though it is not pulling anything, and those furrows are very deep,” said Basilio Chikwanda, a teacher at the Harare-based institute who had brought nine students to the spectacle. ”As a source of power it is quite interesting.” Then he stepped behind a car.

    The owners of the Imire Game Park here have started an unusual effort to train their six young elephants to work. Already, their rangers ride the enormous beasts on anti-poaching patrols around the 7,000-acre park.

    ”A chap on an elephant sees a lot further in the bush than when he’s just on the ground.” said Peter Musavaya, 22, the ranger in charge of the training. ”And it makes quite an impression on the poachers.”

    The elephants also cart tourists around. And while the plowing is still in its early stages, everyone here expects the elephants to prepare the fields for next year’s feed crops.

    The game park business is competitive these days and it does not hurt to have such a novelty. But the owner of the Imire Game Park, Norman Travers, is also hoping that his experiment catches on elsewhere.

    In much of southern Africa, there is no shortage of elephants and in some parts their overbrowsing is causing ecological damage that threatens other species, not to mention extensive damage to crops and risk to the farmers and their families when hungry elephants stray from their reserves. Whether culling is necessary is a constant debate.

    ”How can we make use of the surplus rather than kill them?” Mr. Travers asked. ”Can we maybe see a future for them through this? Using them for anti-poaching, to me that is ideal.”

    Despite the widespread belief that African elephants are untrainable, zoo keepers and circus trainers say they are actually more intelligent than their Indian relatives and, with patience, quite trainable. They point out that Hannibal rode African elephants over the Alps and into battle with the Romans.

    ”If you draw a parallel with a horse, the African elephant would be like the Arabian thoroughbred — sensitive, very bright,” said Jim Stockley, a South Africa-based trainer who has prepared African elephants for circuses, zoos and movies.

    At Imire, the training system is love and reward, which means lots of talking, stroking and food. ”Our basic rule is to never hurt the elephant,” Mr. Musavaya said. ”If you do something he thinks is unfair, if you hit him or don’t feed him, he’ll remember. And one day he’ll bonker you.”

    The training starts off by naming a part of the body — literally pointing out a leg, saying ”leg” and lifting your own dozens of times.

    ”He’ll look at you for two days, thinking, ‘What’s this all about?’ ” Mr. Musavaya said. ”But on maybe the third day he’ll lift that leg just a little bit. That’s when you shove his mouth full of oranges and pat him all over and give him lots of praise. The next day he’ll be lifting that leg way up.”

    Plowing took a bit longer. Mr. Travers has documented the first efforts on his home video system, and he is glad to show them off. ”Not exactly the straightest of furrows,” Mr. Travers narrates over equally wobbly camera work. ”But for the first time ever, it’s really not so bad.”

    A big drawback to putting elephants to work is how much they eat — up to 500 pounds of forage a day. A tractor would cost less. But at Imire, the tourists pay the bills, and when it comes to what they would rather ride, or see plowing the fields, an elephant will always beat a tractor.

    [/HTML]

    #46998
    goodcompanion
    Participant

    Amazing pictures. An elephant might look a little out of place on my farm though.

    #47004
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    In Chinese armies elephants were very rare, but the Southern Han was probably the one and only exception in which elephants werent considered unusual. The concept of a “Chinese kingdom” wasnt very soldified as it is today, but the Southern Han was within the territory of modern China. Its territory was mostly of the Guangdong, Guangxi, and Hainan province and existed around the 10th century AD. The last use of war elephants was against the Song dynasty. Turns out the beasts didnt do too well against crossbow bolts, and thats the last time any Chinese dynasty used them in significant numbers.

    #47003
    Nat(wasIxy)
    Participant

    @goodcompanion 2264 wrote:

    Too bad. I’ve always wanted a skidder/loader combo in a draft animal. Maybe one that could pull a harrow while simultaneously operating a broadcast seeder with the trunk, or pick rocks and lob them out of the field.

    Yes, but on the other hand they can also store up and shoot that water. Which would have great application in watering-in veggie transplants or retaliating to disgruntled motorists when on public roads.

    Eleven or twelve square bales a day seems a very modest upkeep for such a majestic beast. Who isn’t inspired by the two-tone trumpet blasts of a team of draft elephants lurching into motion as their teamster expertly guides the 16-bottom plow into the rich earth? Working horses are much too pedestrian.

    I agree, but if they can pick out weeds and rocks, plough, harrow, broadcast and water their own crops…aren’t THEY the farmer then???:confused:

    #47001
    Robin
    Participant

    Has anyone read “The Cowboy and his Elephant”? Great book about a Rancher in Colorado who acquired an elephant.
    Also, there is an Elephant Sanctuary in Tenn. I am sure they have a website with lots of information.
    This thread is great. I haven’t thought about elephants in awhile. There is one housed here in Orange County, NY along with several camels, zebra, etc. A fun place to visit.

    #47002
    cousin jack
    Participant

    I know a veternarian over here in the UK, he is a very knowledgeable working horse man as well, he once had an elephant, he told me it was the most intelligent animal he had ever known.

    #86327
    chkrishna2001
    Participant

    https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/6VZqlFS5Nhg how about using elephants and establish a power plant ?

    #86330
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    One thing to consider is not just total amount of feed, but type. How much can the elephant gather on his own between shifts vs the horse? Can he browse in a woodland environment or must he have good pasture? A major advantage of the ox is that in good weather he can harvest most of his own feed…

    #90502
    Sting74
    Participant

    Never heard of elephants being used for work here in America.

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