For possible sub group and phone number for Lancek

[TaylorJohnson]

Any one that is interested in compiling some info to help us ( us as the small group at this time ) educate or sell what we do to the public let me know by private message or even give me a call at 715 416 1078 . If we are the base of this group then it is good for the base to be strong in what we are doing . As far as selling this group to potential members , that can all happen when ever you all see fit. I don’t think it is now ,now is the time to build an infrastructure so to speak. I think as horse loggers we all have more work offed to us than we can do . The trick is to get the pay up there high enough to let us all advance and grow . Given the choice most people do pick the horse logger over machines but most people when given the info on what it will cost to use a horse logger compared to machines can start to buck every were from a little to a lot. There is know reason for them to buck .
I would like to know what you all tell your costumers to sell them on the idea of horses VS machines ? What makes us a better choice ?
Lancek thanks for the info on the wavers I think it will be a big help to me this winter . I have a number of people that want to come and work with me and this is how I will do it if they do in fact show up . And I take it you got my number 715 416 1078. I look forward to talking to you . Taylor Johnson
ps. If it is ok with every one we can use this thread as long as it does not take focus off other tasks.

[Carl Russell]

Taylor, for me the difference is not between horses and machinery, but between the way that I practice forestry versus the type of forestry that is used to facilitate the use of machinery. Using animal power has limitations, but often those limitations allow us to approach the forest and forestry in a much different way than the forestry that is typically practiced in the modern industry. I have posted this before, this is a thread with an article that I wrote summarizing some of the details of how the use of draft animals can facilitate a different type of forestry and land management. http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=778

I wonder if this organization can help to inform horseloggers about using certain methods of forest management as a way to separate them from mechanized forestry?

Carl

[TaylorJohnson]

Carl I agree 100% and I do think this will be as good a tool for horse loggers as the public may be more so . I think most of us on this private board are in the same type of mind set as far as what we want to do for the forest and are costumers. I do think that there is so much to learn and so many ways to help each other , buy just setting up this board all of are tool boxes just got bigger and they will continue to . This is a great , great , tool this site is. We do have some limitations because of the draft animals but we do have a lot more advantages for the type of work that most of use have a desire to do as far as the forest goes. The type of horse work most of my family did for years was not what I do for the most part , they were mostly production volume cutting with horses. I don’t think that is what any of use want to do and I don’t think it is what is good for the land or the land owner as far as his /her land investment goes. Taylor Johnson

[TaylorJohnson]

Great link that you posted , this is what i am talking about and this is the type of stuff that we all can use to help us and land owners . Great link thanks Carl. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

@TaylorJohnson 12985 wrote:

This is a great , great , tool this site is. We do have some limitations because of the draft animals but we do have a lot more advantages…

I’m a glass half-full kinda guy. I think our opportunities are limitless versus preconceived limitations! 😉

-Scott

[TaylorJohnson]

Scott for what most of use want to do the machines would be the limiter not the drafts. There are some small forwarders and skidders that might be able to come close but at the price they sell for and to still fall short of the drafts it is not worth it. These small machines are as much as the big ones and even though they are small they are still to big for some of what I do. Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

I agree with Taylor there is machinery out there that would greatly inhance our abillitys but are out of the reach of most!This is machinery form over the pond and the price for them would be doubled by inport fees and shipping the alester on utube is one inpurticular and the sweeds make one that is not much bigger then a bobcat with trailer that can realy handel some big logs so the tecnolagy is out there its getting it into the US thats the problem! So the only concultion that I can come up with is to come up with our own ideas and develop them. As a coop efferot we should be able to come up with some grants to do this. Scott is there anything that the forestry dept has in there bag of tricks that might beable to help some sort of development grant we could tie this in with biomass probley Lancek

[lancek]

Finaly found the pic of the machine that I was talking about Ill see if I can up load it Lancek

[simon lenihan]

This is a mechanised forwarder, i thought you were talking about horse drawn forwarder. A horse drawn forwarder would be 2 to 3 times lighter than this piece of kit and a fraction of the price, remember that most of the damage in forestry is caused by forwarders and not the processors.
simon lenihan

[Gabe Ayers]

“I wonder if this organization can help to inform horseloggers about using certain methods of forest management as a way to separate them from mechanized forestry?” – quote Carl Russell.

This is exactly what we at HHFF have been doing for over 10 years now.

I appreciate the set up Carl with that question. I think another issue that Carl and I have in common is that we have written about most of this stuff many times before.

If this group were not about supporting a different type of forestry than what is practiced conventionally I would want nothing to do with it.

Animal power is the superior form of low impact overland extraction of logs. Yet, the silviculture is the most important aspect of what we do and that separates us from mechanized harvesters.

The separation from mechanized methods should help us procure or find timber to work on/in and could help us market the products of our work as coming from more sensitive extraction methods and better forestry.

That is called establishing a “source differentiated identity”, making sure the consumer knows your products are not the same as ordinary forest products. The classic example is organic food versus chemically grown food. This is exactly why we started the DRAFTWOOD program. http://www.draftwood.com This approach has generated some premiums for the values of our products for many years and certainly could be a part of every “animal powered” loggers marketing if they wanted. It is not a get rich quick scheme, but a way to find somewhat better markets than hauling it to the local mill and taking whatever they will give you for it….

We certainly haven’t found DRAFTWOOD markets for all the material (tree species) we harvest in the practice of Restorative Forestry.

This is what Tim Lancek and I have been talking about helping him get started in Missouri. It could work anywhere. It may not be for everyone and as Carl and others prove you can just be a good forester and good horselogger and have more work than you can do too….

It is something HHFF brings to this group as an example, everyone has to make their own decisions. We will be glad to share it.

So here we go into the next chapters in this international animal powered forestry group.

Hope everyone had a great thanksgiving, we are off to work a little today and maybe work off some of that turkey and mashed potatoes. We have a few snow flurries blowing around, it is really wintery now even in the Southeast.

This may be a sub group thing for this group and I volunteer for that part if there is such a motion.

[Carl Russell]

HHFF is setting great examples in all of these areas. My question is not whether or not we could do it, but more about whether it would be an initiative that this group takes on. I think the work that Jason has been doing will serve as a great example.

As Jason insinuates, my background as a forester has given me an advantage at promoting my angle, which many horseloggers don’t have. It is also difficult to work with conventional foresters to get them to understand the horseloggers’ advantage.

My thought is that the membership in DAPFI could somehow incorporate an adoption of certain practices, or trainings, that could provide members with capabilities that they can use to separate them from the conventional. This would be especially functional if there is an effort to bring foresters into the fould that can work in conjunction with horseloggers in different regions.

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

With HHFF the differentiation or separation from conventional approaches of forestry practices starts with defining our practitioners as “Biological Woodsmen”, not just “horse loggers”.

We (HHFF BOD) awards a “Biological Woodsman” certificate at the completion of an apprenticeship that certifies that the apprentice is approved by the board of directors to certify to all that:

(fill in the blank with name of BWM)

has fulfilled the requirements of

Biological Woodsman Certification

including worst-first single tree selection, directional felling, animal powered skidding, and restorative forestry management.

dated and signed by the mentor and President of the BOD

These are very highly prized documents for the few folks that have them.

This is not a simple proposition, but it is a way of separating ourselves from conventional loggers and foresters.

I will add that I also am a forester and find little support for the forester community. There are few foresters that will support our work. We should work with those few for sure, but I have to say:

If conventional foresters had the answer to what is really sustainable forestry nobody would be asking the question, they all would already be doing it.

I don’t make this statement to incite a discussion about conventional foresters but to encourage the development of the DAPFI group effort as a whole with or without the presence of a “forester”.

We are all able to read what most conventional foresters have to say about horse logging. It is generally not good and not the source of real support we will need to make a living doing “good forestry”.

On the other hand, we don’t want to exclude anyone that is willing to help everyone doing this work to be successful.

As far as I know there are only few “foresters” in the country that are actually practicing horse loggers – Carl Russell, Andy Egan, Chad Vogel, Josh Bissette and myself. There could be more that I am not aware of, there always is more going on out there than I realize. Maybe Scott is another “forester” for this list?

[lancek]

Simond I agree with you that the draft powered forwarder would be a good rig in the woods and would work well with smaller logs [ and I may be nieve because I have not seen any in use] but I have two concerens with the loaders one is the lifting capacitys the other is how long of skid will this machine make ! we have a 1/2 mile skid to a haul road sometimes and need to carry 1500 to 2000 feet at a time to make any money now this is usealy done on tractor roads that they use to get tractors into land locked feilds! or old skid roads that allredy are in place ! we allso have logs that are regluarly 2000 to 4000 ponds will one of the sweedish loaders handle this type of weight? Because if it could I could take smaller turns with the horses and still come out ahead! And then there is the question of if the horses can handel that much weight!
Now the other thing that I question is the price of the machines out there I have done some figuring and even useing highend products I think one of these horse drawen machines could be made for less than $5000.00 inclueding the hydrolics! Well thats enough for now I have a big cheery pie in forunt of me and now Im going to eat it:D

[simon lenihan]

lancek,
The vast majority of horseloggers in europe including myself have from time to time hired in mechanised forwarders for exactly the reasons you have mentioned. The problem arises when these forwarders leave the forest tracks and make new tracks through the forest, this could be down to greed or simply timber prices have dropped and production has to rise to compenstate for the loss of revenue, it is not acceptable in any form but i have seen it so often over the years. Horsedrawn forwarders have there limitations, 1000 board feet, 16 / 18 foot logs and lifting capacity of 2000lb, they were developed for thinning conifer woodlands in scandinavia, these forwarders can not compete with the bigger mechanised forwarders nor were they meant to. With larger timber and longer extraction distances there would be a need for the forwarders you have described, i know alot of horseloggers will not agree but i think it is still good the fact that horses would be used to extract to track side and keep the machines out of the forest. Lets take the czech republic as an example, 1700 full time horse loggers using 2700 horses, these loggers extract short distances to forestry tracks for secondary extraction by forwarder, it is a system that works for them and keeps alot of people in employment. i think most horseloggers given a choice would like to keep the job as simple as possible, team of horses and chainsaw but due to markets / tree species /prices / geography we as horseloggers end up applying ourselfs to the situation at hand. Anyone working draft animals today are doing it by choice not because they have to and therefore i think we can have a very sucessfull organization.
simon lenihan

[john plowden]

Let me throw this out –
I’m going to start next week on a lot with two single horses and a tractor with forwarding trailer – Horses twitching to the main road and the forwarder picking up an hauling the distance to the landing –
A “combo” job – horses where they are most beneficial and the machine going the distance – I’ve worked many jobs this way with great success –
The lot is very diverse -softwood logs, hardwood logs and the related pulp –
we’ll have four people working and making a decent wage –
John

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