Helping a friend train some mules

[CharlyBonifaz]

I see the tractor as simple device to lead these animals. Just as I would lead them on a rope, to show them everything and let them get aquainted to strange situations. Above all the concept of not letting them connect the experience to fear, getting hurt, etc.
as mules are extremely smart, I suppose that helps them grasp the idea very quickly
and by day 3 this learning process has only begun…….there comes your time for relationship/trust building

[Ronnie Tucker]

Jack Strode has been dead for nearly twelve years, he was 73 when he died. People claim that he broke lots of mules that he never saw. So this bunch of mules in Idaho that you’re referring to, the odds are real good that he never worked any of them. The man is right about the mules being their buddies, they’re not supposed to be that, they are a beast of burden. Somebody referred to them as slaves, and that might be true, but work is what they are supposed to be here for. They are not here as partners, there is no relationship or friendship. Someone suggested that they are broke by submission, which is true, and to quote Jack, “if they ain’t afraid of you, they ain’t goin to mind you”. The pet mule the man referred to is just like he said, they are the hardest things to deal with because they have not respect for you. To quote Jack again, “one like that, you gotta whip ’em wild, then break ’em”. Too many people try to interject human feelings into animals, and thats not the way it is.

[Hal]

@Ronnie Tucker 8136 wrote:

They are not here as partners, there is no relationship or friendship. Someone suggested that they are broke by submission, which is true, and to quote Jack, “if they ain’t afraid of you, they ain’t goin to mind you”.

If I believed that, I would not be going into horse/mule farming. I hope that that is not true–because to me, that is a very discouraging way of thinking about using draft animal power. It may be true (and I am sure that you have much more knowledge of horse farming than a newbie like me), but I can’t imagine that you don’t have some kind of relationship with your animals. If a farmer didn’t want the challenge of forming a pratical working relationship with an animal, why would he/she even use draft animals (as opposed to a brainless tractor)?

[Robert MoonShadow]

I agree with Hal; and respectfully disagree with Ronnie on this one; if I can’t have a meaningful, friendly relationship with my animals, then what’s the point? Nostalgia? Because a tiller or tractor is more efficient (with some important exceptions) if you’re just talking work performance. As I said, I don’t know, and can’t verify how many, if any, of these mules of Clarence’s were trained by Strode; most are old enough, anyways. I just pointed out that it’s claimed that some are, and that the intent was there to focus on buying them, back in the 90’s when he & my boss first got started & were partners. That’s why I made that point of saying so, up front. IF any of these were trained by him – and IF this is the technique he used on them, then I see a difference between them and what Bobby & Ellie are willing to do for Bonner. I do know that the donks I had in my little “pack string” were all trained to lead by lead rope when I got them. I gave them all the choice, and they all ended up preferring to just tag along without leads… and I spent a memorable summer back- and donkey- packing across Yellowstone, years ago… without hobbles or a lead rope (um, because some dummy forgot the lead when breaking camp on the second morning and was 4-5 miles away when he realized it). :rolleyes:
I still stand by my original statement: I, personally, would not trust an animal trained in this manner, so would not own one. Others might find them highly useful; I would not. I am not qualified nor experienced enough to train a work animal… until I am, I will buy what I need, already trained – but not trained in this manner. Which, of course, is no big deal… unless you happen to be selling 1-3 donkeys or small mules, then it might. Which was my original point: I wasn’t condemning the method, but rather just pointing out that if the purpose was to train the animals then sell them, some people such as myself take the training method into consideration when buying.

[J-L]

There is no reason that pair of mules pictured would not ‘bond’ with who ever they are working for. I just don’t see that viewpoint (no offense, I just don’t understand it).
I work my mules and horses a lot, daily since November. I will never know if they have ‘bonded’ to me. Yes, they show up at the barn door every morning to be harnessed for the days work. Is it because they just flat out love me? I’m not sure. In my honest opininion, I think they like the grain bucket a hell of a lot better than me.
Three of the five that I work were broke by me, and it was a quick training period and then just learning on the go. They are just as willing and trustworthy as anything I’ve ever worked, if not moreso.
I will tell you that in my experience, if you work (and I mean really work) a team long enough and hard enough, you will also wonder if they are bonded to you like a human friend, but you may have the working relationship that you want anyway.
Every now and again you might even have to spank one where the colt sucks if they’re doing wrong and know better. But that won’t mean they won’t ever trust you.
Bottom line for me is, they work for me. I am the boss on this outfit. I try to be a fair boss.

[Ronnie Tucker]

j-l is speaking with experience and is dealing with the real world as you have to if you are really using draft animal power as a means of making a living feed them good and work them hard you will be surprised at what can be accomplished with your workstock ronnie tucker tn logger

[Robert MoonShadow]

We differ.

Peace.

[J-L]

This is fine Robert. We can disagree agreeably. Sure don’t mean that I don’t like to hear your views as well (this goes for everyone). Good luck to you.

[jen judkins]

It occurs to me….reading this thread…that there are as many ways to work with an animal as there are personalities or purposes in which an idea becomes reality.

I definately value the connection I have with my animals…the way they try to please me and sometimes ‘mess’ with me. I dig their individuality. I like triing to figure out where their heads are at, whether they enjoy what they are doing or whether they are scared or bored. It IS what fascinates me about horses and being able to do things with them. So I could no sooner take Ronnie’s approach as I could fix an engine….just no aptitude for it, I guess.

I can see the point though. If you are making a living with your ‘beast of burden’ …and btw, I am not…there isn’t alot of room for ‘paralysis of analysis’. You just have to get things done. And I’m not convinced that horses don’t prefer that approach in many cases….they are afterall born followers.

Interesting discussion.

[Gabe Ayers]

There is a place for all sorts of working animals regardless of training methods.

For those who really work their animals for a living it is a different world than that of a hobby, adventure or experimental “relationship”.

I think there may be some clear differences between working mules and working horses. I remember one thing Jack said was never to pet a mule because you would have to whoop him twice for every time you petted him. I am not sure any one statement is purely true.

But I do know that I appreciate everyone’s involvement with working animals on any level.

We are lucky to have folks like Ronnie Tucker in our midst, he is an animal powered practitioner of proven success. Hopefully we will have more with such skills and success in the future.

We are lucky to have all of the folks interested in animal that are here.

Thank you all for what you are doing.

[OldKat]

@jenjudkins 8175 wrote:

It occurs to me….reading this thread…that there are as many ways to work with an animal as there are personalities or purposes in which an idea becomes reality.

I definately value the connection I have with my animals…the way they try to please me and sometimes ‘mess’ with me. I dig their individuality. I like triing to figure out where their heads are at, whether they enjoy what they are doing or whether they are scared or bored. It IS what fascinates me about horses and being able to do things with them. So I could no sooner take Ronnie’s approach as I could fix an engine….just no aptitude for it, I guess.

I can see the point though. If you are making a living with your ‘beast of burden’ …and btw, I am not…there isn’t alot of room for ‘paralysis of analysis’. You just have to get things done. And I’m not convinced that horses don’t prefer that approach in many cases….they are afterall born followers.

Interesting discussion.

…EXACTLY what you mean Jen. I DON’T work mine for a living either; if I did I might see things differently. However, for the time being I just enjoy trying to figure out what makes them tick, how to stay one jump ahead of them and how to make darn sure they are doing what I have requested them to do. I didn’t coddle my kids when they were growing up, and I am not coddling my mares either.

This discussion and similar have reinforced for me, however, the NEED to find constructive WORK for my youngsters to do. Donn told me that off line, and as usual, he is correct. It seems to me that the people that DO work their animals for a living have little need to go through the iterations that the rest of us do. Likely it is because both teamster, drover, muleskinner, etc and animal partner(s) are so focused on the work that there is little time for inappropriate behavior. I think most animals are smart enough to do what needs to be done, and if there isn’t enough work to do they sit around trying to figure out how they can play you like a banjo. 😉 Still, neither of my mares nor I are likely to win any physical fitnness awards anytime soon … we just don’t do enough work.

BTW: I broke probably 50 or 60 show calves or maybe more to lead EXACTLY the way they are training the mules … behind a tractor. Not a good example I know, like comparing apples to basketballs, but it worked. I just never thought about using it to train equine type animules (weak pun, I know!)

[Donn Hewes]

Hi all, Nice looking mules at the top of the thread. they look calm for the most part and off to a nice start. I have been thinking about this thread since I have an interest in mules but waiting to reply. I don’t think using a tractor is either great or terrible. Just as with a round pen, a rope halter, or your old hat; it depends on how it is used. If you pay attention to the animals they will tell you have fast or slow to go and what to do next. It is our ability to use brains, our experience that we have gained in being around animals that will prepare us for starting them.

I bet that when the folks in these pictures hook a mule to a tractor, what they are relying on is their instincts for what is right. How does a mule react? Is it calm? What is it accepting? What is it ready for? Every muleman (It is like caveman – most women don’t think it is an insult to be left out) or women I ever met will do ALMOST anything to avoid a fight with a mule; tractor or no. The reason I say almost is because we still must bend them to our will or they will be useless.

I like to take my time, and three weeks is the same as three days in the life of a mule to me. But I work alone, and my methods (even the weaknesses of my methods) are based on my experience. I try to read an animal and push them to the next thing when I can. I don’t want to fight with a mule!

As for petting, well some people don’t want to kiss their wife’s because they might get uppity. Horses and mules both like people and appreciate affection and thanks for their hard work. To “make a pet out of them” is a huge mistake if it means they don’t except you as the leader and do as you say – no questions. Horses and mule are both smart enough to understand the difference between receiving a pet and being a pet.

I hope you all have been discing , spreading, and harrowing like mad. I have been having a great spring so far – just cant get anyone to take pictures. Donn

[Gabe Ayers]

What a great thread, such common sense considerations by all involved. I am adding this comment to try and post a photo of a hard pair of logging horses that have been put on the sulky plow for the first time this past weekend.

Of course I had to be hard headed myself and put the Pioneer Plow and stout horses into a twenty five year paddock and plow it uphill…. it worked but it was really work. This pulled about like 7000 pounds in a flat bottom sled in a gravel parking lot….

I guess we will put some potatoes and onions in this ground for fall storage veggies sold through out little network here in the mountains and then back into some grass for continuing the paddock needs which we always have on the place.

Hope it will post and isn’t to big as an attachment.

[Hal]

Reading the past few responses here, I don’t know if I understood what people were talking about when they said that they didn’t want to develop a complicated “relationship” or friendship with their mules/horses. I thought that people were talking about ignoring the needs and capabilities of their animals, but I think that what they were really talking about was the fact that they didn’t need to be analyzing their relationship all the time–they just needed to be competent leaders. I hope I didn’t seem to be condeming anyone’s approach or judgement.

[Rod44]

Update on the progress of Bob’s mules. Last week the necks where getting a little chaefed so he gave them 4 or 5 days off and rubbed down the necks with salt water. Started driving again on saturday. Stopped today as he was harnessing up. They are doing great. He turned his big wagon around with them in a small area that I would have thought twice about turning around in with my well trained haflingers. He hee’d and haw’d them around and just asked them to back and they did without hauling back on them. Turning into quite the team of mules.

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