Helping a friend train some mules

[OldKat]

@Biological Woodsman 8192 wrote:

What a great thread, such common sense considerations by all involved. I am adding this comment to try and post a photo of a hard pair of logging horses that have been put on the sulky plow for the first time this past weekend.

Of course I had to be hard headed myself and put the Pioneer Plow and stout horses into a twenty five year paddock and plow it uphill…. it worked but it was really work. This pulled about like 7000 pounds in a flat bottom sled in a gravel parking lot….

I guess we will put some potatoes and onions in this ground for fall storage veggies sold through out little network here in the mountains and then back into some grass for continuing the paddock needs which we always have on the place.

Hope it will post and isn’t to big as an attachment.

You know Jason; I could really come to like those Suffolk horses of yours. I have been a lifelong fan of the Black & Grays, but it is hard to NOT appreciate a sound set of honest workers … regardless of the hair color. Yours are definitely ambassadors for their breed.

I can’t really see the bottom(s) on your plow is it a one way plow or is it reversible? I’m not that far along with my team, but I’m starting to look around for that sort of equipment so I was just curious what is out there. :confused:

[Gabe Ayers]

anthropomorphize – an.thro.po.mor.phize – to ascribe human form or attributes to an animal, plant or material object.

I think this may be a problem that is expressed by the few folks in this country that work animals for a living every day. They are beast of burden and not humans.

I think that kind of thinking about working animals or any animals is a gateway to thinking like PETA people do about all animals.

Keeping the utilitarian perspective about these animals is important. They are kept – to help humans do things in an efficient way particularly in regard to the use of fossil fuel and outside or off the farm inputs. They provide a biological power source that is far more about independence than friendship with the actual animals.

Yet I can relate to the phrase “animal husbandry” as real stockmen are indeed married to their animals in a nurturing, protecting and providing for their needs sense.

There is surly a certain affection held for work animals by the folks that work their animals full time, but a serious one not a “play” or “casual” relationship.
They are married to them, not just dating. In this context the leader is very clear and is a safer experience within that definition.

I certainly “love” my horses, some more than others and each has it’s own personality, but the term used by some trainers is “horsanality”, which keeps it differentiated from being a human being.

Keeping all this in mind when training and working your animals is appropriate.
The affection that the general public has for animals is important to introduce interested folks into this culture of utilitarian workstock.

But one would like/need to mention that if you stand to close and the animal moves it may step right on your foot and not even know it….. and that they are prey animals and their instinct to flee when frightened will never disappear nor would a real horseman want it to completely disappear.

Great discussions on this board, unlike any other anywhere on the net that I have found.

That plow is a Pioneer Sulky left hand turn plow with a 12″ bottom. I just got some new points from Pioneer and plan to change them from a modified one the fellow I got it from had put on it. It is a rugged piece of equipment that has all modern steel components that are readily available. I think the I & J and White Horse plow are similar but some say lighter and easier to move around by horses or humans.

The best color on any work animal is sweat. I just like the ones that are very willing to pull hard given proper equipment and clear signals and that is a characteristic of this breed in particular. It comes from years of selection base on behavior and complemented by confirmation.

[Hal]

@Biological Woodsman 8229 wrote:

The affection that the general public has for animals is important to introduce interested folks into this culture of utilitarian workstock.

That is definitely true in my case. As a member of the “general public” and a very new person to draft animals, I can say that I was first interested by drafts primarily because I like horses more than machines. But then I realized that there really are practical reasons to work horses as well, which just adds to the appeal. I think that both sides of that (the appeal of horses and their practicality) should be taught to the public and emphasized.

By the way, I second OldKat-that’s a great looking team of working horses there.

[Rod44]

Nice pict of your horses at work. I’m looking to get a sulky plow by next spring.

[Barw]

Well said Ronnie Tucker, that the exact truth.
Bar-W

[dominiquer60]

Jason,
I know a mare or two that would look nice between those boys.
Erika

[bivol]

Biological Woodsman, you couldn’t have said it better!

[Robert MoonShadow]

When first reading the original posting to this thread, I had a gut-instinct that said “No.” I didn’t have the words or thoughts to explain why I felt so, but after more than a week of thinking on it, hopefully I now do: One of the premises that form a foundation on how I work with my animals – any animals – is that I do not want to teach them to fear me. Respect, obey, accept me as the herd boss/alpha male/lead goat/tough bunny, yes. {“Tough bunny”?} But not fear me. In fact, just the opposite = if anything causes alarm, turn to me for guidance. I do not cause the harm or fear: I am the solution to it, and guidance through it. Forcing a mule to be hitched to something it initially fears (f.e. the tractor), shows me as a source of fear – even if eventually the animal learns not to fear the original source – the tractor, etc. – it has learned that I, in at least some cases, will induce or condone the cause of that fear. If a child comes to you in fear of the monster under the bed, and you laugh it off & send the child off to bed or to seek solace from another, that child instantly learns that in at least some instances, you can not be counted on for that solace and protection. I use this example of a child only for the reason that I consider most animal emotional & logical patterns to be similar to that of a child = very basic and forthright in nature.
I re-entered this discussion solely for the purpose of explaining this viewpoint of mine, and because on this forum, I have come to reasonably expect intelligent conversation – I think the responses and differing viewpoints on this will be very enlightening. Obviously, some here think that this method is quite adequate and turns out trustworthy working animals… and listening to them gives me something to measure my thoughts with. That’s valuable to me. Whether someone derives their entire living with work animals, partly so, or just “play” (as it was phrased), it’s all the same to me: it has intrinsic value in and of itself –> and should be respected as such – anything else seems elitist, to me. So, I will continue to take in the responses herein & use what I can, that fits me & mine – and thank each & every one of you for your contributions to this forum.

[jen judkins]

I admire you for weighing back in….

The way I see it…and I am one who values the relationship I have with my horses…the tractor would be something I reserve for an animal that was intractable for my purposes. Likely, I would sell an animal before it got to that point OR I would have made my point some other way and developed a working relationship with it. I prefer the later, for all the reasons you describe.

But I fully appreciate the full time farmer (which I am not) and their need to accomplish what needs to be accomplished in order to make a living. I believe horses and mules and donkeys can definately buy into this program, and actually thrive by being useful. I wish you could watch Bivols video of the loggers (I forget where they are)…..just a perfect example of relationship and work ethic.

[jen judkins]

Robert, go to the library and watch this video. I have watched it over and over and marveled at the relationship possible between man and beast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfo3X4gTuQ&feature=related

[Rod44]

I must jump in again and repeat – this method is not based on fear or punishment or hitting or hurting. The method is based upon focusing the animals thoughts on what it is doing and to show him there is nothing to be afraid of. The object is to not give the animal the chance to be intractable. For once he learns he can be intractable then you have a real problem on your hands and you might as well sell him. Bob and I too want good relationships with our horses and mules based upon respect where we BOTH behave and have respect.

[near horse]

I have to say that in a pecking order or herd heirarchy it sure looks to me like leadership by dominance through fear and intimidation. Who had the horse that got knocked of his spot at the top by getting a solid kick in the ribs from a new mare? That is intimidation. Although I’m not of a military background, many soldiers seem to defer to and respect the SOB sergeant that drove them into the ground in training. He is the leader and, although he scares the ….. out of you, you’d walk through fire for him.

With regard to the tractor – I would like to hear more about how you hitch them – do you hitch to the loader and drive the tractor in reverse?

This weekend, I plowed with my team and one of the guys I was with is going breaking a mule to drive for an older fella (it already rides). He handled her nice and gentle when bridling, harness etc. But then he just hooked her onto the three abreast (she became the 4th) he had on a plow and off they drove. She got used to it enough so that then he switched her for one of the 3 and had to pull her own weight – but no driving lines to her – again she did pretty well. The problems usually arise when you stop and they have some time to think about what to do next. I didn’t think this was cruel at all -more learn by doing and seeing others aren’t having a fit doing it.

As far as being anthropomorphic goes, that’s all we’ve got. None of us will ever truly know what’s going on in a horse’s head – shoot, they could be doing calculus in their heads while we’re plowing for all I really know. So what does it matter if we say “they like this or that” or “hate this”. Life is pretty vanilla w/o a little speculation.

[near horse]

Although I don’t have mules, I think this comment wight be appropriate here rather than starting another thread in “horses”.

Over the last month I’ve taken Red and RAnger and plowed for 3 weekends and at each of these events, guys that I respect comment on what a great team they are. When I ask them what they mean or what makes them think they are great the responses usually focus around how broke they are and honest horses/workers…. It makes me happy to think that they are good but then I am surprised to think that many teams won’t stand w/ lines tucked in britchen while the teamster hooks the tugs to the cart, wagon, plow. In fact, I had someone freak out because I wasn’t using another person to hold my horses while I hitched. Shouldn’t we expect our horses to be able to do that? In this day and age, many of us (I assume) are working alone and don’t always have a “handler” at the ready.

Anyway, my point is this – I don’t know who broke these horses or how they did it but 1) they aren’t frightened and do have their own minds 2) they know how to work hard w/ no nonsense but again are not afraid (as far as I can tell). These are younger horses (6) with some good years ahead of them and how they got to this point seems to be of little concern now. They are a good desirable team. As someone mentioned earlier, there are all kinds of “horse/mule personalities” and different strategies might be more effective w/ each type.

Heck, I coached HS football for close to 20 yrs and you had the same situations. Most kids won’t work hard enough to reach a higher potential w/o someone pushing them. Some of those kids will increase their efforts when you get after them but a few will crumble if you get on them. You have to learn how to identify which kids are “more fragile” and use a lighter push while the others can handle and even thrive on getting their butt chewed out. Sorry to digress but it seemed applicable.

[farmboy238]

The mules are hooked to a boom pole ( 3point hitch) by the halters using chains 18″ in length. Tired mules make good mules. If you notice the video the mules are pulling a front loader tire and have NO problem standing when they are whoa’d, again tired is good.
If you look at the interactions between equines they are ALL about fear and intimidation. That’s how they settle pecking order.

[Ronnie Tucker]

i liked the pictures showing the good progress made with the mules .this method will work on draft horses or light horses just adjust your load according to size .also this will work on spoiled animals as well if you have the need to you can tie the tractor behind .this method is less danger to you or the stock and you be in control all the time. but start with the tractor in front ronnie tucker tn logger

[Author]

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