Helping a friend train some mules

[Rod44]

Farm Boy is correct on the boom pole off of the 3 point. Trick is to have the boom pole at head high or higher so they can’t plant their feet and be dragged. If they are tied high enough their front feet come off the ground if they try to hold back and they have to come forward.

Near Horse – I too have run into frantic people when you hitch your team by yourself. Or, tie them back to the wagon or forecart (with set brakes) and walk aways away to do something. If they have had enough work in the past and they know what you expect they can be pretty reliable, but anything can happen. On our last wagon train drive I was leading and when it came time for lunch we just pulled over on this back country gravel road. I unhooked the tugs and tied the lines back to the wagon and walked back and had lunch with everyone else. Half hour later I came back and they hadn’t moved and inch.

Some of the people in the two driving clubs I belong to, won’t even tie their horses up to stop for a break or lunch with them hitched up. They unhitch and unharness.

How do you all tie up when harnessed? I use a neck rope and then run it down through the bit ring. There is a special adjustable hole snap you can use. I don’t use one. I tie a ring in so there is no chance of slippage and chocking. I usully have a halter on too but they can be rubbed off.

[near horse]

At an earlier plowing event with the first “warm” weather of the season (upper 60’s) , we stopped for lunch and so I tied lead ropes to the trailer hooks, took off the bridles and dropped them some hay to munch on. Well Ranger decides he’s too sweaty, harnessed or not, tied up or not, so he gets down on the ground and tries rolling w/ harness on – hames digging in to the ground – he did both sides before I got over there. He acted like nothing happened but it sure looked like it had potential for a wreck –

I hate the idea of pulling harness off for a 1/2 hr or 45 min break. Maybe that’s what I should do, though. What do you others do?

[Plowboy]

Near Horse, Sometimes you can get away with alot at home but when you get out in public don’t leave your lines tucked in the britchen have them where you can get ahold of them. My one 85 year old mentor once said, ” ain’t never been a horse born that can’t get scared”. Alot of wisdom in that statement. We have another good lifelong horseman that would knock you on your a## for doing something like that. Not because you or your horses might get hurt but because him or his animals might get skinned up in the commotion. Don’t get too comfortable no matter how good they are. Ours are all great but we keep a sharp eye on them always especially in public.

[Rod44]

For sure on that watch them in public. When at a function or parade other than at home (or on a back booney road) I always have the lines in my hands. I come from the Amish end (me and the horses both trained by one) and we may tie them for half a day with the harness on. Which reminds me of an amish story.

I kept my horses at my amish friend’s place for a few years untill I retired and brought them to my farm full time. At first Melvin still had a pair of belgiums too. We also bought a haflinger stud cheap at an auction. He was 6-8 years old and never been trained for anything. One day Melvin decided we should hitch him with the belgiums on the mower. Well, all he could think about was stud things. Wouldn’t pull, just hang back and try to mount. Finally he reared and got his front feet tangled in the others harness. Fell down under the other horses and tangled up. Of course I got all excited and said “here is my knife Melvin let’s cut him free”. Melvin looked at me scornfully and said “Amish don’t cut harness”. He drove the horses ahead some which pulled the stud out from under them. We untangled him some and he got up. Moral – don’t get excited too soon!

Another day he wanted to go to his brothers place a couple miles away. All the horses were down in the lower pasture too far away. So, he takes the stud out of the box stall and jumps on him and rides him down. He had never even had a saddle on him before. He said he had to kick him quite a bit to get him started but finally away he went. I it something how people that have worked with horses since they were little kids can handle horses! I would have been killed.

[Robert MoonShadow]

I’m trying to understand why to use this method in the first place; it was mentioned early on in this thread that one of it’s ‘benefits’ is that it turns out workable animals in a short period of time. But that, to me, suggests a lack of planning: unless it was some sort of catastrophe that wiped out the farm’s entire stock, then why so shorthanded in mules as to need some trained so quickly, and thus need to use a shortcut method? As the saying goes: “lack of planning on my part does not constitute an emergency on anyone else’s part.” I never spoke that the idea of this method was to purposely create fear; however, it seems an inherent byproduct of it. Or else, why the need to tie the head high to prevent balkiness? As I said, I’m NOT trying to argue {will, in fact, refuse to do so}; I AM trying to understand. I just think that an animal is more trustworthy and also gives more of itself, when it wants to do something, and not just because it has to. Creating or finding that source of motivation in an animal is, to me, something that approaches true art. Definitely a fine craft. That belief will not change when I finally move to the level of deriving my livelihood from working with draft animals (in my case, donkeys) – because I derive my livelihood now from my own labor –> the donkeys will only ease my labor (on some levels, and increase it on others) and increase my overall productivity – but I will still take the time to train them through other methods; I demand & expect excellence from them… and myself. So, can/will someone explain to me what the benefits of this method is, as compared to taking the time & effort (and patience) to working through the balkiness (if it even developes)? Is it just a time issue? Or is there something about this method that produces superior animals? I can’t watch youtube videos (but will try to at the library), so my understanding of this method is limited to the words & still photographs that have been posted here. I would really like to understand what it is about this that has so many adherents to it, here. I want to thank you all that have contributed to this thread… it is very interesting.

[Rod44]

Robert, I’ve been trying to explain it to you. The idea is NOT to set them up to fail it is to set them up to WIN. The idea is NOT to let them know they can be balky. The idea is NOT for them to have a chance to learn to runaway. The idea is for them NOT to have a chance to be traffic shy.

As to why use it as a faster way of training, I asked Bob the same question as we started. He said (somewhat in jest) “I’m 55 and don’t have an extra 10years to whisper train this team”. It is just that some people want to get to driving and using a team sooner than some others. If you want to take your time and work through issues slowly fine. If someone doesn’t, as long as no human or animal gets hurt, fine. One of the secretes is not to deal with a horse like a human – because they are not.

[Ronnie Tucker]

brother your going down the the right fork in the road your destination is to be reached so much sooner than the touchie feelie methods .at least after you get yours broke you can take your team and go help the other man with his or break another team and sell him your first team or better yet trade him your first team draw lots of boot and break the ones he has spent so much time forming their relationship yet still can not drive them road . good feed hard work wet collar pads will always be the key to good work stock ronnie tucker tn logger

[Rod44]

Some talk about it being a fear method. It is not – look at all they are not afraid of at this point.

The owner – they have never been hit

tractors
cars
logging trucks
semi trucks
horses and buggys
water
tarps
tin cans

not afraid to be driven to town and tied up at a hitching post for an hour while owner and friend were having lunch.

[Anonymous]

Probably like a lot of other training issues. Weeks (months) can be spent “training” them to load, lead or whatever, if that is what one chooses – fine – but it is certainly not necessary. To work with these animals on a much shorter training schedule certainly does not mean they are “abused” or have less of a work ethic.
Animals (and humans) both quickly realize what “standard” is expected of them from both a learning (they have to learn how to learn) and working prospective. Could take a couple of years to teach “kids” their abc’s but usually can be done in a much shorter period without any harmful effects.
Joe (Ak)
(Rod44 – thanks for posting the pictures!)

[Donn Hewes]

Here is why I think it works, and by extension why I don’t think it is the only way to train a mule. Please Rod44, or anyone else that was there correct me if I am wrong. Despite using a shoeing stock or a tractor as aids in this training, these guys still rely on their judgment and skill in determining how to work these mules so they stay calm, and learn. I think this method could be messed up as well as any other by someone that didn’t have the ability to see the animal and how they are reacting to what is going on. Sometimes you pause for two seconds and it makes all the difference; other times you know that to pause right here would be a really bad idea. Use your voice to encourage them or push them just a little. You are not talking to the tractor or the stocks, you are watching the animals and seeing what will get what you want.

I don’t think there is a be all and end all method. The problem with using restraints (consider the tractor or the stocks as restraints) in training is you have to know how and when to take them off. That still requires the experience I am talking about. Based on the few photos I saw here I think these folks have that skill and it serves them and the mules well; as the restraints come off quickly with out any problems.

I prefer to train with as few restraints as possible because it is easier for me to focus on the animal and how he/she is responding to the training. This is a personal preference. I don’t really think one method is much faster than the other. My methods are plenty fast enough for me.

If you keep them calm, they are amazing at what they will accept and adapt to. Donn

[farmboy238]

Robert,
I certainly appreciate the way that you are attempting to understand these methods without being insulting and condemning. I guess overall the difference in methods could be summed up with several analogies,i.e. you can compare child rearing with mule training. One method would be the Dr. Spock (Benjamin) method that consulted with and reasoned with children to elicit a desired behavior. We all know the tragedy of that story and the consequences that Dr Spock was forced to endure (even with his own children). Another method would be “spare the child, spoil the rod”. The product of that method was “The Greatest Generation” of the WW2 era. Mules are like children (impulse driven) and both benefit when they have clear boundaries and firm rules. I know what I expect from my mules and I know that it isn’t going to hurt them even when they don’t (the reason most mules balk at what they are told to do is because they think it will hurt them ). If I were to “reason” with my mules it would extend, immeasurably, the time that it takes to get them to do whatever task I asked of them. The risk of me and the mules getting hurt in the process is also increased. Using Jack Strode’s methods I can train the entire team to be completely finished in the time it takes to get them over whatever was bothering them in the first place and have a more PREDICTABLE, DEPENDABLE, SAFE team as a result. I am the Master of my mules just as I am the master of my home. I don’t beat my wife and I don’t beat my mules. I have a great relationship with both. (I hope my wife doesn’t read this; she might not appreciate the analogy!!) Jack’s methods (they were using these methods long before Jack) go under the premise that you can’t converse or reason with a mule but you show it that what you want doesn’t present it any harm but it doesn’t get to pick and choose based on it’s desire but yours. Anybody that has ever trained a bird dog knows the difference between a dog the was “Force Broke” to retrieve or a dog that was naturally brought along. If the natural dog decides that he doesn’t want to retrieve then there is NOTHING that you can do about it. If the dog was “Force Broke” then you can make him do his job. It’s the same way when training Mules. I personally prefer Jack’s methods because it gives me PREDICTABLE, DEPENDABLE and SAFE and that makes for a more enjoyable working relationship for my mules and I.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Rod; I do thank you for trying to explain it.What I’m not understanding is what benefits this has over a different approach – it seems from your postings that it’s mainly time & convenience (for the trainer). I have a question: Do you see a difference in the animals that have been trained in the different approaches? I’ve seen the difference in dogs that I’ve had to encourage to take to water – we cross a lot of streams in trailwork. I’ve leashed some up & dragged into the creek until they’ve been “desensitised”, and others, I’ve taken about the same amount of time and went & sat in the creek until their desire to be with me overrode thier fear & they decided to approach. One dog, I had to, for it’s entire life, order it across a stream & it would go… Nell (the one I have now) dislikes water, but swims out into the Salmon River to be with me when I’m swimming. Same approach for my pack donkeys on fording creeks = I let them figure it out, by leading the others across first. I don’t see the difference in time spent.
Ronnie; I recognise & respect my animals’ abilities to think things out – to reason – and don’t consider that to be “touchie-feely”. I don’t “break” animals… I bend them to my desires, which I think, takes quite a lot of skill – of which, for equines, I am lacking (for now). It’s the same when I cut a live tree for firewood = I recognize that I’m taking a life, and out of respect for that, I don’t waste it. I am not a “treehugger”; I’m a Pagan. So, for me, it’s not about “touchie-feely” or “breaking” – it’s about respect – whichever method that is effective & efficient, while maintaining or increasing the respect and admiration I have for these animals that put out so much effort on my behalf. I also recognize & respect that most others don’t feel this way. But instead of “forcefully leading” a mule into various situations to desensitize (numb) it, I’d sooner take about the same amount of time & quietly lead it up near to the highway & let it figure it out on it’s own. Or better yet, pasture it near a busy road, if possible.
Now I may be way off base with this, but here it is: I honestly suspect that Jennifer, once she has Peanut & Reno healed up & trained the way she wants, will actually be able to consistantly get more out of her horses than a team that’s been ‘broke’ to harness, perhaps within limitations of Reno’s injury – but maybe not even that.

[J-L]

Robert, you die hard man. I’ve got to say I admire your will. Still disagree though.
I had the opportunity to visit with Ronnie Tucker on the phone. The man has a vast amount of experience and knowlege of mules. More than most of us will ever have, due to using them and training tons of them. That was a good conversation. Wish he was my neighbor, I’d bug him to death.
I do believe Donn has it right in his comment about taking away the restraints and using your instinct to read these animals. You always get to that point in any training method really. You will have to hook your animals to unfamiliar things throughout it’s life. At that point you’re relying on instinct and experience to keep things from blowing up. You have to have the ability to read your mules. It takes experience and concentration.
Good old broke animals usually get that way from lot’s of use. If they are started right (however that is), then it’s a matter of getting used.
I think your perspective is that if they like you, they’ll work harder for you. I’m not convinced that’s true either.
Your dog analogy is a good way to gauge how differently you and I think. If I’m riding and my dog won’t come across the creeks, I just keep riding. If he can’t figure it out he’s not the one I want anyhow.

[Carl Russell]

The tractor is just a tool in a bag of tricks. It’s just a tool that’s way too big for me to carry around. I believe in working animals as the primary way of training, and although I don’t pass any judgment about the methods used here, I subscribe to a simple concept that one of my mentor shared with me years ago. He said if you want the animal to cross the bridge, then drive them across the bridge. I can see the benefit that the tractor is bringing to the chosen endeavor, but I don’t see how the tractor plays into the long term working life of the mules. It is a tool and a technique that I would find to actually bring more to the training process than is necessary. I have never had, or worked with mules, but I tend toward more no-nonsense working routines.

It has been misunderstood for eons that restraint, or significant resistance will cause the animal to submit, and eventually accept the leadership of the trainer, but it is exactly as Donn points out, the learning happens for the animal when it displays the appropriate behavior, and the trainer shows pleasure, is relaxed, and eliminates the restraint. These are the very same aspects of communication that occur in any successful training procedure. It just depends on what tools you have, and how you want to use them. I think it is important that as trainer/leaders that we don’t impose on a particular method some degree of negativity, such as excessive restraint, or frightening. One person may be able to cause extreme fear with a feather, where another may be able to calm an animal with a boom on a tractor.

As for having a relationship with the animals, I think it is important to let them be the horse, cow, mule, or dog that they are. Similar to people, it is unproductive to try to assume that we can truly have an appreciation for what is going on in their heads. I am not afraid to show my animals that I am caring, and can be gentle, but it doesn’t mean that I expect them to be my best friend. I work my animals for purposeful endeavors, and that is why I have them. I take a lot of pride in the marks I leave behind me, and I value the part that those animals play in that, but the part they play has more to do with how I approach and manage them than it does with them individually.

Our greatest tool for working with animals is our sensitivity. If we are uncomfortable with some approach we will be ineffective with our animals. Just because someone wants to take a little longer, or go lighter, doesn’t mean they won’t be just as effective. When I was finally able to read this post I was so pleased to see that this site has become such a place where so many people with different experiences come together and can share. Each of us has to be entrenched to some degree in our own perspective, I know I am, but reading this whole thread from start to finish for the first time one can see so many good points made by all of you.

Thanks, Carl

[Anonymous]

Guess I’ve spent too many years of having seen the real benefits of working with animals in controlled situations like shoeing stocks to not see the real pluses of working with mules using the tractor/boom setup. Though, I’m certain neither are a substitute for understanding how to work with animals.
The real question for me is not whether the use of the tractor is a “good” idea, but, rather HOW DID YOU GUYS TURN THAT BIGGGG TIRE TO MAKE A FEEDER?!!!
Joe (Ak)

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