Horse wants to Walk Off or Turn completely around As I attempt to Hook

[hunterbrooksfarm]

Last weekend I was able to get out for a day and work with the horse. I managed to get about a cord of wood hualed up in about 3hrs, mostly from really long hauls, the trees are at the very back of the property and its about a 1/4 mile. I did have a few problems, mostly with her not standing still as I try and get a chain on the log and then onto the single tree. I’m working by myself which isn’t ideal.
I laid out the logs so that all I would have to do is ground drive her parallel to the log, stop her and then hook up the log and skid them out. However she’s ground driving fine up and alongside the logs, I can get her to stop, but as soon as I start messing around with putting the chain around the log she starts to walk off, and sometimes will turn around and look at me as I’m trying to put the chain on the log. I’ll go and ground drive her back around and stop her at the log and go to hook the single tree up and she’ll hear me fooling around with the chain and single tree and she’ll walk off again, or she’ll just turn around and face me. I’m letting go of the lines so that I can fool with hooking up the chains.
Today I was gonna hook her up to the stoneboat/sledge that I built so that I could load that up with my saw, chains etc and then skid the logs up, and at he end of the day I would have had it loaded up with all the small kindling sized branches/logs for the return end of the day trip. I got her harness up at the hitching post, she stood great w/o moving then as I walked her around over to the boat/sledge she eyballed it and seemed to not want anypart of it. I had her stand there for a while facing it, standing next to it, and infront of it and she seemed to calm down. so I ground drove her down towards the wood pile and turned her around and headed back to the boat/sledge and had her stand parallel to the boat/sledge and as soon as she heard the jingling of the single tree she started walking off like she thought she was hooked up already. I kept trying to get her to settle down but as soon as she heard the tug chains jingling she’d take off. So I cut my losses and just ground drove her out back to where I had some more logs down, as soon as I got her down there the same thing happened I’d have her all lined up so that I could put the chain on the log and then hook the single tree up and she’d start walking off, or turning around on me to look at me, and then when I finally did get her all hooked up to the log I started to drive her forward to go down the skid trail as it makes a big loop, she wanted to turn around and go the way she came in, no matter how much pressure I had on the lines to try to get her to go the way i wanted. This caused her to walk all over the chain, and get tangled up in her tugs/traces, and made the log spin around just adding to my frustration, and I’m sure hers as well. We skidded the log up to the house and dropped in off next to the wood pile and headed back to try again. This time she seemed to balk at the turn to go down where the logs were, so I had her make a large swooping circle and then started her down the skid trail, she made it about 150′ and wanted to turn around and head back out. So I grabbed her by the lead rope and lead here down the trail thinking maybe she was unsure as to what was going on, I walked her down by the logs and tied her off to a tree for a while as I rolled the logs into position, she was quite entertained to watch me. then I tried hooking her up to a log and yet again she wanted to just walk off a few steps and then turn around to look at me. It took a little while and some manuevering and quick hooking up I got her to skid out some more logs. I’m not sure if she has ever been in the woods before, so it could be her unsure of what is being asked of her. She also hasn’t been really worked in about 3yrs so I’m sure she is rusty. I was able to get another cord of wood up to the wood pile in 4hrs, it was slow going and frustrating at times.
Does anyone have any hints/tips to get her to wait and stand once I get her in postition? Or will she eventually figure everything out as we spend more time together. I would really like to get her to to stop and stand in the same spot as I get everything hooked up. She also really liked to pull, It’s a long skid from out back atleast a 1/8th mile and I was having her skid for 100yds or so and stop/rest for a bit. As we would stop and be there for a little bit she’d want to get going again and try to pull, so I would tell her to whoa and stand till I was ready to go, and then I’d blow her some kisses and she’d get going again. A few times I think she was in a trot pulling some of the logs, it seemed to be easier for her to pull them, All the while I’m jogging alongside. I didn’t let her do that to many times as I surely don’t want her to get into that habbit. Does anyone see where I’m doing something wrong, I sure I am as this is my first time trying to do this, especially by myself. 25yrs ago I helped my uncle skid logs out with his horse, of course I was about 10 at the time so wasn’t paying to much attention at that time. I have helped him the last few years at the fairs hitching his pulling horses to the stoneboat and definetly don’t want my horse to be that jumpy off the line.

[jen judkins]

Hey Hunter…. It would certainly help to have an experienced teamster over to see exactly what is going on, but it sounds like a simple matter of getting your communication with you mare tuned up. If she hasn’t been out for awhile, her behavior is pretty typical in my experience and improves alot with repetition and some sweat under the collar.

When I hook to a log, I drive the horse right up to the log so his nose in on the spot I am going to hook my chain on. This helps alot with encouraging them to stand still (facing away from home and the skid) and allows them to see what you are doing. Then I gee or haw them around and back them to the log to hook on.

Where are you located?

[hunterbrooksfarm]

Currently I’m located in Michigan. I tried doing what your talking about Jed yesterday. I’d drive her in to where the logs are nose in and giver her a whoa and then a stand command, Then I’d hook the chain around the log, then when I’d try and get her to gee or Ha around and try and back her she’d try and turn completely around and we’d end up just chasin each other in circles. Other times once I’d have her finally hooked up I’d give her a couple kisses to get going she’d almost imediately start turning and wanting to come around and go the opposite direction. All the while I’m giving her voice commands and some commands through the lines. She definetly hasn’t gotten completely out of control in a panic, I just think she’s rusty and we’re still getting used to each other. I think she needs repetition as you have said, right now during the week I just don’t have time to work with her. With my two boys and football practice at 5pm every day and practice not ending till about 7pm, then its get home about 730 get them in the shower, and then help with homework and then get them in bed the day is pretty well full. So she really only gets some good hands on work/training on Sat/Sun. Once Football is over I’ll be able to devote more time after work every day for training.

[Carl Russell]

@hunterbrooksfarm 36854 wrote:

…… I think she needs repetition …….

She’s getting repetition…… just not what you want.

Two things…

.. never hitch a horse that won’t stand …you need to break the cycle of errant repetition. The horse is telling you that she doesn’t understand what you are expecting from her, so you need to change that. Otherwise she will learn to do exactly what she is doing every time you do what you are doing now..

… and Whoa means stand….. there is no reason to complicate your commands with subtleties of language.

If you search under Stand, Standing, or Horse Standing at the top of the page, you will find several great older threads dealing in detail with these very issues.

Good luck, Carl

[grey]

Ditto on what Carl said about not hooking a horse that won’t stand. She’s not safe and she’s not ready. You can’t rush through that part – it is essential.

If she’s turning around, it’s probably because you aren’t keeping her straight with the lines. You need practice handling the lines.

[Does’ Leap]

I have faced very similar circumstances when I started working horses. My horses were trained for farm work and had never logged. I had too much horse, not enough experience, and no mentor to help out. Five years later, after many mistakes, and some dangerous situations, I believe I have a safe and productive team (now we have 2 teams) of horses who work single and double in all farm and forest environments. For what it is worth, here are my suggestions:

Have very clear expectations of what you want. If you don’t have clear expectations, it is hard to communicate those expectations effectively to your horse. In this case, you want your horse to stand without moving until you are ready to go. Expectations should not be limited to your work with the horse but should pervade every interaction. You are the leader.

Communicate your expectations clearly, compassionately, and unwaveringly. If your horse takes a step, you should have your lines in hand correcting her. Like Carl wrote, “Whoa” means stand. I don’t repeat the command, I just correct with the lines and say “hey” in a low voice. When I write “correct” I mean back the horse to where she was supposed to stand. If your horse wants to turn around to the right to face you, you are there pulling her left line to keep her straight ahead. I advise you to never let go of your lines until your horse stands consistently with our moving over a long period of time (I am talking many months, if not years). If you are finding resistance, it is important to evaluate whether the horse is confused or simply resisting your commands. More often (in my experience), it is the former. If your horse does not understand, you need to be creative in how you might change your communication to get the desired result. If you are convinced she is just resisting, I suggest increasing the pressure until you achieve the desired result. The idea here is that as you increase pressure on the horse, she will choose the path of least resistance (your command) to escape that pressure or discomfort. If you find resistance, it is also important to question whether you are asking too much of your horse.

To back up a step, I would practice these skills – standing, turning, stopping, etc. – in a very familiar, comfortable environment for the horse. It sounds like skidding logs in the woods isn’t comfortable for her, at least at this point. How about pulling a light load around the barn yard? Stop, mess with your chains, correct, mess with your chains, etc. If she can stand for 10 seconds praise her and go. Repeat. Try this again, asking her to stand longer. Try messing with your chains, asking her to stand, and the unhooking from your load and asking her to go. This approach includes concepts of pressure/release, approach/retreat and helps break the horse’s expectations of what you are going to do next. I encourage you to start at a very basic level and move up from there. I have been guilty of “too fast, too soon” and have paid the price and hopefully learned my lesson. If you are getting stuck, go back to the basics and move up from there.

To back up a step further, how is your horse on the ground (i.e. not in harness)? Does she lead on a loose line and vary her speed according to your lead? Does she yield her fore and hind quarters? Head down on command? Can you touch any part of her body without resistance or ticklish spots? Can you drive her with two lead lines attached to her halter? Some would say these a pre-requisites to driving a horse. You can google “horse ground work” and check out material by Perilli, Clinton Anderson, Doc Hammill, and others. You can practice these things in 10 minute intervals every day. These exercises are not “the answer”, but do help establish your leadership and broaden your communication with your horse.

Good luck.

George

[Tim Harrigan]

Good advice, George. Same goes for oxen.

[hunterbrooksfarm]

Update:

The last few days I’ve taken things a little slower and methodical. I’ve realized that she really likes to be talked to just about the entire time as she is walking down to where the logs are. I ground drove her all the way down to the back corner of the pasture about 1/8th of a mile, she was a little timid once with a large gust of wind that made some bushes move, all she did was a stutter step and look in the direction of the noise and kept on going. I drove her up to the log and gave her whoa, and just waited. She stood still, then I slowly walked up all the while I talked to her and told her was I was doing. I kept the lines in my hands, I’ve got 30′ biothane lines, and I hooked the chain to the log. I walked past her and told her what I was wanting to do and told her to “ha” softly as I gave her some encouragement that she was doing a good job as she neared were I wanted her I had her whoa. She had made a wider turn than I would have liked, but at least she came around and then stopped for me. I then held the single tree in one hand and the lines in the other and gave her a “back” with some easy’s thrown in there, and she backed up pretty straight, and only had to give her a little correction to straighten up. Once she was close to hook I had her whoa and hooked her up, I had her stand there and didn’t let her start off untill she was perfectly still. While waiting I had given her a few good girls, and rubbed/patted her hind quarter. I only manged a couple logs the other day, and one today. But she’s not turning around on me as I try to hook her up or once she’s hooked up. I think as long as I take it slow with her and keep the repetition up with her I think we’ll make it. Tonight’s log was probably the largest one I’ve had hooked to her so far about a 16′ poplar with a 18″ butt end, I was having her pull for about 100′ and then have her whoa and stand for a while as I jiggled the chains, Then I’d have her pull again once I was done and she was still. Took about 2hrs to get the log up to the wood pile where I had her whoa, and she stood still and didn’t move as I unhooked the log, and unhooked the chains from the single tree, and then I unhooked the single tree and ground drove her back to the hitching post where I gave her a good rub down and brushing once the Harness was off.
Funny thing is the last few days when she’s out in the pasture and hears the jingling of the chains and harness she comes running up to the gate and stands there with her ears pointed forward and looking to see whats going on. before she could care less, Think she might be enjoying finally doing some sort of work? They say hard work is good for the Mind and Body?

[jen judkins]

Sounds like you and she are communicating better. We all (horses and humans) feel better about work when we understand what is expected. I’m enjoying hearing about your progress with your mare…

[Carl Russell]

@hunterbrooksfarm 36877 wrote:

….. I had her stand there and didn’t let her start off untill she was perfectly still. While waiting I had given her a few good girls, and rubbed/patted her hind quarter…..

It sounds like you had a great day.

It is good that you are looking to reward your horse for doing what you want.

This is my perspective on whoa;

It is a common misconception that Whoa is a command.

I think it is important to understand the basic communication that horses use, pressure and release. In basic round-pen training, the pressure is positively responded to by the horse moving away…… Well they are moving to get to a safe place with no pressure. The reward that you give for complying to your pressure is that you release them, and allow them to stand, safe, without pressure. Because you instigated the pressure, then you also instigate the reward. The safety is something that you have given them. It is the beginning of communication. Horses learn on the release.

When a horse is safe, it stands. If it doesn’t feel safe it will not stand. There is a built in reward system. Pressure (Command to move, execute, respond) and Release (Reward, free, safe, stand).

If we think of Whoa as a command, and we apply pressure to ensure compliance, then we miss a great opportunity to use the language that the horse innately understands. We also confuse the horse, because to them standing is the absence of pressure. They are always looking for some indication that they have been given a release. Petting and praise may make them comfortable, but they are not the same as releasing them from the pressure of your initiative.

Using Whoa as a release/reward can have profound results in effective communication with your horse. Step… whoa…. (reward for successful execution)….. Back….whoa…(reward).

Don’t think of her standing as part of the logging project, think of it as a reward for getting to that point… release her so that you can focus on hitching the chain….. she need know nothing about what you are doing, only that she has been released, given a reward to stand comfortably and wait for your next command.

My horses don’t stand unattended because I have told them to….. they stand because I have released them from the pressure of my working commands. They appreciate that I give them that reward, and they wait for me to give them more to do, because of that.

A horse can find safety on its own, but that kind of safety is fleeting…. waiting for the next pressure. If they find that they can trust a protector, or a leader, to give them safety, they will be attentive to that leader’s initiative. In my mind, using this to our advantage is the basis for the teamster’s craft.

Carl

[Author]

Posts