Log Handling

[Rick Alger]

Taylor,
I have an LN9000 Ford Tri-axle with a Prentice 120. It’s parked. For what it’s worth, I’ll tell you why I don’t run it.

#1. The pulp mills go on and off quotas unpredictably. I’m too small a producer to get a contract, so I can’t count on moving my own pulp in my own truck.

#2. I work alone. My production is one tri-axle load a week. I can’t justify the registration, insurance and upkeep for say 35 loads a year, and I don’t see any sense in chasing other people’s wood.

#3. If I’m running the truck, I’m not putting wood on the ground, and yet I still have to drive back to the job at night to feed and water the horses.

[TaylorJohnson]

Rick that is the same problem we have up here with the big trucks , by the time you make them legal you can’t afford to run them. License , insurance ….. too much money. Any thing over 26000 lb need to be driven with a CDL . Taylor Johnson

[Gabe Ayers]

It does come down to working for the machines instead of the machines working for you. I have never heard it called machine husbandry. They are a necessary evil to operate at all, working to keep them going is not what most of us want to do, so we keep the stuff to a minimum and enjoy our time with the horses first and keep the order of investment from there. It is about the culture not the machines.

It also can be a matter of making the value of the labor worth more which is he opposite of the machines that replace human labor. The value of the labor will only be greater from a quality of services perspective, which is what makes me not a Luddite. When an appropriate machine helps us stay in the woods practicing good forestry, we get one.

For our group the issue of start up cost are very important since we focus on putting new Biological Woodsmen in the forests of every community we can. The less machinery we need to start, the easier it is to get more people started.

I ran a similar self loading truck for almost a year. I picked up from all our horseloggers and hauled to the mill that owned the truck. The problem came up when they boomed and we had to be busted as the smallest guys. When they couldn’t get logs from anyone else we were the ticket. There is seldom much loyalty from the mill unless they need your goods or services from a short term perspective.

We have to develop our own markets and that’s what we are doing every chance we get… DRAFTWOOD

~

[TaylorJohnson]

The least favorite part of my job is running the loader ( as far as my logging goes ) . I do love seeing those horses tie into a load . Taylor Johnson

[mitchmaine]

Trouble with woodlots is that they are always so different. One has a field that you can push up all the wood you want. The next takes two days with an excavator just to get off the road and space enough for barely two truckloads. The next might be two lots back from the road across a brook. It’s easier to get a truck to the wood than bring wood to a truck if you can. One system barely fits all. We used to use a set of snatchblocks and pull and pile logs downhill and up against a couple trees if you could so if one got away….my point is you have to adapt to so many different kinds of conditions that simple always seems to work best. I bot a 110 prentice loader and set it up on an int. wheeler back in 1981 when reg. and ins. were much cheaper, and it almost broke me. You can cut wood or you can truck wood but not both. There is an empty machine somewhere costing you money all the time. I truly believe I “kept” more money with the horses than I ever did with machines even though the gross was so hugely different. The woods industry has changed so much over to mechanized logging, that chainsaws are now antiques, and that’s why we have to consider different methods of involving machinery with animals. I’d like to say I had some good advise on this matter, but I don’t so keep talking and I’ll keep listening…..there is a paradox here if you can actually make more money, or keep it anyway, with your animals. Tell me if I am wrong about this.

[Scott G]

I fed the machine, then it turned around and ate my ass…

That said, I still work with, and around, mechanical operations. Between being a government forester and running my own gig, I am pretty much involved with every type of harvesting system there is. I might even put together a helicopter show for this nasty ridge we have next year. For me, it is always about using the most appropriate harvesting system, or mixed system for the job. It’s just that the draft animal option is severely under utilized in conventional forestry, especially with the smaller land ownerships and on sensitive sites. It is the niche I fill when I step away from the government role.

With that preface, it boils down to bottlenecks in the system. If you are not moving enough wood to not only pay for the loader, but also make money from it in the process, you shouldn’t have one. But hand loading gets really old and paying for a self-loader isn’t cheap. You are paying for an operator and you are losing payload potential from that loader being mounted on the truck. Out here where the turns are long, that adds up. But if you are not cranking out more than a load a week, and you have a good & honest trucker, it is probably the best way to go.

In my own situation horses are for skidding, hydraulics are for building large decks (if needed) and loading. I just factor it into the cost for the job, but the situation we have out here is different than what most of you fellas are dealing with. I have access to equipment when I need it, mostly from keeping great friends and collaborative working relationships from the past. It’s amazing what you can get done when you pool your resources on a project.

I’ve said this several times, but the outfit that Taylor, Simon & others run with, the horse-drawn forwarder, is the perfectly matched system. It is basically nothing more than a motor/manual CTL system with the teamster/faller/ horse being the harvester/pre-buncher and the horse-drawn grapple trailer being the forwarder. That said, to be truly efficient it needs to be completed like a real CTL system to be completely efficient. In other words, minimal landings and ideally, directly loading a set-out trailer. Unless you have only one sort or more than one trailer you inevitably are going to have to deck some wood until you get enough for a load of that sort. The great thing about this for a horse logger or any other type of micro-production system is that it is not trucker dependent and you are eliminating handling the wood once. First rule of logging; everytime you handle a piece of wood (without value-adding) you lose money. With the set out, it is your primary “decking” area and there is not a trucker waiting on you. When it’s full you call them up to bring you an empty and haul away the load. In anticipation of the response, “they aren’t going to let you have a trailer empty that long” the truth is there are quite a few idle trailers sitting around now, and fellas, I’ve seen several used ones for sale in the 4-9k range. Most of these trailers will hold 12-14 cds/6-7mbf. It takes a helluva’ a lot less money to maintain a trailer than a truck.

This system is more in line with the small conifer wood some folks are dealing with versus the hardwood pumpkins some of you guys are in. A minature version of this is just a 14-20k gooseneck behind a 1 ton. I used to haul a lot of wood that way, and for me when I was working small scale and alone that was just about 1 days production. I could get $350-$400 worth of post and poles on the trailer and that was a perfect amount of boot for a days production for one guy (me).

Concerning Rick’s statement a while back in this thread, I used a skid steer to load short-wood trailers with 8’s & 16’s for almost three seasons. I would build a dirt ramp on the landing, always on the cut bank (uphill) side. As I would fill up one bunk the driver would pull forward and I would load the next, and so on until the trailer was topped off. Worked well until I got a knuckleboom on site. That’s all I used when I was just pulling gooseneck loads off. Loaded many posts by hand as well, still do on small jobs, and like Taylor said, your arms feel like they are ripped out of the sockets by the end of the day. But if your smart about how you lay out your material and work with your head (unlike when I was in my 20’s & 30’s) more than your back it isn’t too bad. Hard to justify a loader when I just take a flatbed PU load of posts to town. Never was a huge fan of cross-hauling and rigging and an overhead block for loading, although I’ve had to resort to it more than a few times. It is the efficiency bug again, I’d rather be laying trees down & skidding and leave the loading to the modern aids if I am trying to realize any sort of production.

In short, if you’re production driven to any extent than hydraulics, apropriately scaled and in the right place at the right time, are a gift from god.

It is what puts the “modern” in modern horse logging.

I’m rambling, time to leave…

[blue80]

We have a 1/2 worn out Kobelco ed150 trackhoe, which I think means we’ve got it half paid off….:confused:With a hydraulic thumb, d3 dozer package and 36 inch bucket I think it would/will make a pretty versatile logging accessory. We made a 16ft. boom for it to set house trusses, and the 2pc. boom was made so we can attach a skid steer quick attach plate to it at a later date; forks, post hole auger, stump grinder etc. We purchased it basically because coordinating an excavator on our projects was not allowing us to control construction schedules, and our new farm had 30 yrs of neglect to dig away whenever we had a break in our work schedule. Basically the trackhoe runs “support” for our construction labor only company, hr. meter says 1500 hrs. of support in the last 3 years. We provide better service coming on site, and staying for the duration, instead of packing up and remobilizing. Of course then we need a dump truck and 20 ton tag and the accompanying FET/ CDL /Health Heavy truck tax/ DOT regs etc. etc.
Don’t know if we’ll keep it long term or not, will see how long my wife will do the paperwork; just learning and watching through our first “large equipment purchase” but am thinking some construction/excavation side work, some draft horse logging support, and mounding loose hay put up with the horses may be justification to pay it off and keep it. I put an ad out locally “owner operated trackhoe/dozer/dump and draft horse logging services” maybe something will come up to get us started…..
I am not a logger-yet- but think that making landings, loading and creating roads/decks and using the dump with 20ton trailer to haul out logs would make a good combo, again as aforementioned, the payment really hurts when the machine isn’t being used. Gets to feel like you go to work to feed the yellow monster. In production markets we’ve worked in around the country, owning a machine would be counterproductive, but my goals include sleeping in my own bed at night; being vertically integrated so that we can do more local work consistently has been forefront in the business plan; if you call it that:eek:
In the meantime, the machine is a great tax writeoff; I abide by the saying, “pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s” but if Caesar gives you the opportunity for a writeoff, TAKE IT!

[Mark Cowdrey]

When using “ramps”/skids and a peavey to deck 3-4 logs high, does a smooth skid work OK or does any one use one W/ “teeth”? What little I’ve done, “slide back” has been an issue. Are my skid poles just too short? Any other tips on hand decking, esp. solo, appreciated. Thanks.
Mark

[Rick Alger]

Hi Mark,

I cut steps in my ramps with a chain saw. You can ratchet up one side at a time.

But it’s way safer to have help.

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;16403 wrote:

….. I have access to equipment when I need it, mostly from keeping great friends and collaborative working relationships from the past. It’s amazing what you can get done when you pool your resources on a project…….

Just what I was thinking. I would love to work toward a cooperative ownership of some of these large cost production oriented pieces of equipment.

Rick, have any interest in selling that tri-axle?

As far as skids, I cut mine 12′ long. Sometimes I cut them from hardwood poles and leave the bark on, or I use 4×4 hardwood that I saw out. In either case I never worry about roughening them up. Sure you get some slide back, but I use my leg and hip as much as the peavey, and I can hold a couple of hundred board feet up without much problem.

You obviously have to have your wits about you, and don’t try to do too much at once, but I have done this work for nearly 25 years and can count on one hand the number of times I have had to get out of the way of a rank log.

The main thing is to use the tools in a way that lessens the advantage that the log has against you. Don’t try to stand there are use every ounce of muscle power to move something that weighs more than you do and can break a bone easily. I have worked with a lot of people who think that it will take a lot of muscle, and end up getting caught in a place where they stuck trying to hold the log with no place to go. There is a lot more finesse involved than brute force.

Carl

[Traveling Woodsman]

I like this discussion, all of the different perspectives and regionally distinctive approaches represented get a guy thinking.

I like the idea of some sort of community ownership of a bigger piece of equipment, although there are many challenges associated with a setup like that. My situation here in the mountain and valley region of the state is somewhat unique in that there are often huge tracts on the side of mountain that are only accessed by a skinny haul road. In fact, the mountains here in VA where I work represent some of the most challenging site conditions that I have experienced anywhere in the country. These are not roads you could get any kind of log truck on, and lots of them you couldn’t even get a pickup on. And of course the best timber is always the farthest out from a paved road. It is situations like this that would require some kind of forwarder to harvest in a timely fashion. The first job I did myself I ended up skidding most of the job over a mile, and there was more timber even farther away than that. If any of you have done that then you know that it just doesn’t work. And a significant number of jobs I look at have a similar situation, which is even different from other horse loggers close by. So I am looking into any method of being productive on longer haul distances. The horse drawn forwarders are intriguing, but the biggest problem is the capacity of the loaders. The big oaks, poplars and maples that grow in the deep coves on these mountainsides often reach 3-5 feet dbh, something that can’t be handled by any of the loaders I’ve seen.

If we had reliably cold and snowy winters, then sleds and similar tools would be a good way to go, but that is just not the reality in this part of the country (although this year it would have worked very well 🙂 ). And sleds and scoots are not a historical method in this region either, either with or without snow.

I guess some kind of smaller loader could work if you had a different system set up for the really big logs.

Taylor, yes I remember slogging around in that mud pond. We spent way too much time on those jammers, from a certain perspective it would have been better to wait ’till we could have used the skid steer. But that is not always an option.

On my first few jobs I did all of my stacking by hand. And like Taylor alluded to, I spent a very large proportion of my time stacking logs. In my situation I found it to be very hard to make a go of it with this system.

Thanks everyone for the input, good stuff to think about.

[Rick Alger]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for asking.

This year I’m aggressively trying to develop some “clients” like you and Jason have. Ideally it will be on a fee for service basis with “credit” going back to the LO for wood extracted. We hope to get the sawmill back to running, and use the back 40 as a concentration yard for whatever small odd lots of wood or chipper material come our way on my little trailer from “retail” jobs. Maybe spot a big trailer like Scott suggested. So it looks like I may be able to use the old truck, without registering it, to good advantage.

If plans don’t work out I’ll be sure to let you know.

[Scott G]

@Mark Cowdrey 16407 wrote:

When using “ramps”/skids and a peavey to deck 3-4 logs high, does a smooth skid work OK or does any one use one W/ “teeth”? What little I’ve done, “slide back” has been an issue. Are my skid poles just too short? Any other tips on hand decking, esp. solo, appreciated. Thanks.
Mark

I’ve put “ratchets” on skids when I have to load on the flat but find, even though somewhat handy, they give you a false sense of security. You want to keep your pitch (angle) of loading as moderate as possible. Much better to have longer skids than shorter.

The best case scenario is to plan having your deck uphill on the cutbank side. Then you can run skids right off the bank onto your truck/trailer & gravity is your friend. This is the ideal situation for decking for horse logging and in my mind is by far the most efficient system of hand loading.

Although it might be better phrased “hand braking” as the biggest issue you now have is keeping control of them as they spin onto your truck…

[Scott G]

@Traveling Woodsman 16412 wrote:

….The horse drawn forwarders are intriguing, but the biggest problem is the capacity of the loaders. The big oaks, poplars and maples that grow in the deep coves on these mountainsides often reach 3-5 feet dbh, something that can’t be handled by any of the loaders I’ve seen….

I would still use a forwarder trailer for that length of turn, Ben. If you’re working the hill just roll them off the bank into the bunks, no loader needed. With that size of material I would have damn strong bunks so you don’t bend them over or snap them off at the stake pockets. Might even need to chain the forwarder to a couple of trees on the uphill side to avoid flipping the trailer or, worse yet, blasting it off the side of the mountain with that size of material. That scenario would be the definition of a very bad day… (quite a visual, eh?)

When in doubt, think and log like an ancient Egyptian…

[Rick Alger]

Scott,

I get the ramp concept. A lot of trucks around here were loaded by hand off a rollway on a brow, back in the day. My question is, How do you keep the wood (espescially short hardwood) from slithering out of the truck body when you load over the side with a skidsteer?

Ben,

For those huge logs, a low budget forwarding possibility might be an older 60 hp farm tractor with a winch and forks. No floating fees if you can drive the forwarder to the job.

[Author]

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