Logging Arch

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, I would agree with you that the D ring makes the tongue weight no issue for the working animals. A couple years a go I had a new cart for three head and before I finished modifying the balance it was impossible to hook up by your self. With the help of someone lifting hard on two poles you could get the horses hooked. Once working, there was NO sign the tongue weigh was effecting them at all. My problem with tongue weight is just in getting hooked up. My new cart today is just a bit of a pain to hook to. I can do it and much of that is technique, but I can also tell when a cart is just a little harder than it should be. If you are struggling to hook the first tug something is wrong. I will weight the tongue weight one of these days and then I will try to get a few others to do the same. I am not sure how the high tongue placement or low evener are contributing to the tongue weight or roll back, but mostly I just think it is a little to much tongue weight. This spring I might experiment with moving the spindles forward a tiny bit.

While my cart is not a Barden cart, I took a lot from there. I can’t imagine having tall log arch that you need to climb up on. Thanks Les.

[daniel grover]

Reading this thread, I’m thinking about the I+J forecart I used today at Chuck Cox’s farm. Some of you may know him from Field Days, etc. The forecart is one with an axle that you can move. It’s pretty easy–from standing on the deck, you can move it forward or backward with a crank to adjust the apex and thereby, the tongue weight.

When I saw it my first thought was that it’s a lot of engineering just to be able to adjust your tongue weight. Especially in light of the fact that they’re running d-ring here. Has anyone here ever had the inclination to make a cart with an axle you can move? Is there some crucial functionality it’s serving that i’m missing?

[Carl Russell]

It may not be in these plans, but Les used to make a jack stand under the front of the cart that would park with the pole at the correct height to hitch loose. Once hitched he would lift the pole off the jack stand and let it down to hang from the jack saddles.

I have a pretty heavy pole on my cart With saw, gas, and the underseat tool box full it is probably 75 pounds. I chuck the wheels and have the horses back into it while I push the evener forward with my thigh. It seems easy to me, but many people struggle with it when I let them hitch. The secret is to have the horses lean back….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a link to our daughter Tuilelaith’s senior project, harnessing, hitching, and driving the horses. It shows her hitching and lifting the pole the way I do it.

[dominiquer60]

Tongue weight with Sam’s Rig is a factor too. Not once hitched well with a D-ring harness, but getting it hitched well can be a challenge, even for Sam. It would help to have better chucks for the wheels, but they aren’t always readily available as the arch is used all over the farm, so a second person is always a help when hitching. That jack sounds like a good deal, do you have a picture Carl?

[Carl Russell]

Sorry about the film, it doesn’t show the hitching of the traces.

Also rmember that a high pole, and high evener means a flatter triangle, so there is less spring in the trace/holdback connection. One should be able to push on the evener and see the pole go up. If the pole and hitch are too high, this cannot happen, and the tension is against a straight line.

I’ll look for a picture of the jack stand, Carl

[Mark Cowdrey]

“…One should be able to push on the evener and see the pole go up. If the pole and hitch are too high, this cannot happen, and the tension is against a straight line….”
Carl,
This statement could maybe use a little explication. In general and, specifically, what is the operational effect of the tension being against a straight line?
Thanks,
Mark

[Carl Russell]

Envision the triangle formed between the rear trace, the forward side strap, and the line between neckyoke and evener. If the pole and hitch point are as high as the D-ring, then the angle at the D is almost flat, or straight. Then when you are trying to get slack to hook heel chains you are pulling in a straight line against the other straps already taught.

However, if the hitch point is lower than the D, then the trace and forward strap come up to it at converging angles. That angle can be altered by changing the length between neckyoke and evener. So pushing against the unhooked end of the evener, while horses push back will put tension on the other three attachment, in essence lengthening the hypotenuse, flattening the angle at the D, which will cause the pole to go up, and allow for that one heel chain to be hooked.

Carl

[JaredWoodcock]

I am borrowing one of mark’s piggy back arches and I really like being able to back over the end of the log to adjust the chain and to unhook. Because of that I have been thinking about modifying the barden cart plans similar to what josh is talking about. It is also based on what materials I have sitting around.
Keep us posted as you build the cart.

[dominiquer60]

Yes Carl that is exactly what is happening with Sam’s high pole and evener. As strong as Sam is physics has the best of him. It doesn’t take lifting the pole much to get the proper tightness, but if you don’t go the extra bit to do it right, there is definitely tongue weight on the horses.

The pictures show the difference if you look at the pole height and front lazy straps.

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[dominiquer60]

I couldn’t post both photos in the same post.

[Carl Russell]

So, I have written some of this in other threads, but it seems somewhat appropriate now again.

If the D-ring is too low, i.e., front trace is too long or misadjusted, the converging angles at the D can also be too flat for easy hitching, even with a reasonable pole height.

One of the reasons that Les designed the plug yoke was to shorten the pole and increase pole height at the same time. If you look at the forward side strap side of the triangle and shorten that, you can raise the pole a few inches just by way of geometry. If you have a long neck yoke and pole end, the pole will hang low, and when trying to raise it by tension, one will find the triangle gets too flat to functionally hitch tight enough to raise the pole where you want it.

Hitch height on a log cart obviously has advantages, but horses do not move forward laterally. They lift their front ends with the action of the hinds, and use the counterweight of their body mass to carry them forward. If hitch height gets high, the force of the horse is compromised as the draft angle pulls back on their body mass as they are naturally designed to lift regardless of where the draft aligns on them. While high wheels and high hitches will carry more log weight and reduce friction, they also prevent horses from applying their greatest effort.

The D-ring harness alleviates this draft issue, so a cart that will be used with those harnesses needs to have a pole and hitch height that coincides with the D-ring location, so that hitching and carrying pole weight can be maximized.

Since pole weight can be an issue if harnesses are not adjusted correctly, then these other design features should be taken into consideration when building the cart. Within reason the carts should be built to fit the animals being used on it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Regarding questions about improving function by moving the back plate forward, here is a clip showing the Barden cart in action.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, One question on pole height. I assume you are talking about the front end being “high” or “low”. ie. We want it high, but the wrong geometry can make it hard to hook. I think the Barden Cart started a trend of lifting the rear end of the tongue where it is attached to the rest of the cart. It seems to me this should make no difference on our ability to raise or lower the tip of the tongue (or hook up). Just want to make sure I am not missing something. My tongue weight is probably similar to yours. A wheel chock is a good idea. I might just place a little row of logs where I want to keep some equipment. Everything would be lined up so nice!

Along with measuring the tongue weight of different carts another thing that would be interesting to measure for D ring users would be the angle at the D ring. All the things you talk about go into trying to make that angle, (between rear trace and front side strap) as small as possible.

Hi Mark, you are right the “flat” angle can be hard for folks to see. One of the things we learn from rigging anchors for rope rescue is that when interior angles of an anchor become greater, the forces exerted on the rigging increase. This happens with the D ring harness as well. In rigging an anchor it is possible to put more weight (force) on the parts of your anchor than you have on the end of the rope. For a D ring harness this would mean two or more parts of your harness are pulling on each other and it could be more than the weight the horses feel on the their backs. This won’t hurt the horses, but is causing increased risk of rigging failure and why it can be so hard to hook up. The flat angle that Carl is refering to is when the rear trace and the front side strap start to approach flat (almost 180 degrees), for ease of hooking and to reduce strain on our equipment we want this angle to be as low as possible. Could we get down to 135? I don’t know, but it would be great if we could. After that point the forces are likely greater on the parts of the harness (pulling against it self) than the total weight on the jack saddle. One thing that benefits the harness is that we spread this load out over eight parts of a team hitch.

Yesterday, Josh and I were moving some logs across a large field to the road to help some Amish neighbors. With the whipping wind, chainsaws, and other horses working nearby my young mule was a little antsy; It was nice to not get off the cart while unhooking a log. Once the chain is free from the side grab I can reach over and unhook from the log and drive away. fast and easy.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Donn Hewes.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Donn Hewes.

[Mike Rock]

After watching Carl’s video, this one popped up. 40 minutes, in Deutsch, but darned good old school logging. The sawmill is worth the visit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQqdmjlxMJw

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