Puzzled by this behavior

[Carl Russell]

Ed, I wouldn’t use the reins in any way to try to “get his attention”. In his situation it is even more important that you give him consistent message of contact and direction.

I check collar fit with a flat hand it below the throat and only fingers along the sides, snug but loose enough so that as the head moves up and down as he walks there will be freedom.

As far as him extending his neck, do you mean extending his head? like pulling slack on the reins? If so it is probably hand in hand with the other behavior you have been noticing. He may be trying to figure out if he can really be comfortable with the working situation, and he be resisting the continual contact from the reins. This is a common anxiety that will also pass as they get used to the work, and when they gain condition they will realize that if they just relax and wait, they will have more energy.

Sounds like things are going well though. Keep it up.

Carl

[Ed Thayer]

Thanks for the responses,

He does extend his head and pull on the lines. I gently remove the slack and continue on my way. I we stand for a period of time…. He will lift his head up and down rapidly several times as if he is agitated. But he doesn’t move until told to.

You all probably have seen this and know exactly what he is doing or trying to tell me, but as a green horn, I am still trying to figure it out.

He does not bolt and is very responsive to commands, so we must be doing something right together. And I am just having a ball with him. Maybe we need more time to get used to each other.

[Carl Russell]

I would just follow up on some points made earlier. What you are seeing is probably a whole series of horse behavior. Some people may be able tell you “what they are trying to tell you”, but my approach is that if the behavior does not suit my purpose, I take note of it, but I don’t dwell on it, and I don’t validate it by diverting my attention to trying to interpret it.

Sometimes I think it is as simple as them trying to show you that they have initiative also, and if they sense that they have distracted you, then they begin to question if they should really follow your leadership (a lot like chasing a dog that won’t come to you, rather than walking away and making them want to be with you).

Carl

[Tom S]

Highway,

I believe I am understanding the extending of the head to be what I call “head bobbing”. I only horse to pull a buggy so I don’t has much experience driving, but I have been riding as long as I can remember. If it is head bobbing, the horse is attempting to gain some slack in the reins. Possible some issues with the reins being too tight or even when the reins are tight the bit is resting on the wolfe teeth or the headstall may be fitting to tight. If the mouth is okay, the way I do it is I start practicing slack on the reins and “check” them if they move out too quickly, otherwise the reins stay loose. With a riding horse you can also use a single rein to slow them up and that will prevent you from having your reins tight. I use the single rein pull with my buggy horse. As they learn it, the hand gets lighter with the rein and there is very little to no change in direction.

[Ed Thayer]

I do not think it is his teeth… The vet did a cpmplete checkup on him and said they were good. The bit I am using is a common broken snaffle that just dimples the corner of his mouth.

When he head bobs it is kind of comical in that his lips slap together and make a funny noise. Again, I don’t know if he is physically uncomfortable or what. I don’t think so though.

He takes the bit easily, I slip it right on with no hesitation from him. As Carl eluded to, maybe we overthink issues or what we percieve to be issues and lose focus on getting real work done. I am probably guilty of that.

That being said, I also may be hyper sensitive to making mistakes that will come to haunt me later with OZ. There is so much information out there in books and on the web I tend to get overloaded and wonder how my Grandfather got along and worked horses without the interweb:)

[Ed Thayer]

just got back with the forecart….

He was a pain today. Stood for the first hitch and after that did the whole prance move ahead routine.

When I tell him to whoa, he tried to continue to back up. I am confused and think I need some professional help. 🙁

[OldKat]

@highway 8442 wrote:

just got back with the forecart….

He was a pain today. Stood for the first hitch and after that did the whole prance move ahead routine.

When I tell him to whoa, he tried to continue to back up. I am confused and think I need some professional help. 🙁

That can be the discouraging thing; sometimes they seem like they get it and then they go the other way for a while. Hopefully somebody, somewhere has the answer for you. I know I don’t.

The only thing I could think of is try working him for quite a while doing something that requires he concentrate on the pulling, without having to hook and unhook all the time. Maybe try something like dragging a harrow, or if all you have is some logs to skid make him skid them for quite a ways without unhooking the load. Maybe after you wear the pi** & vinegar out of him he will be happy to stand while you hook up. Not that I have experience with this issue, but when I use to work cow horses I’d sometimes have to give them a little attitude adjustment before they got their minds wrapped around working the cows. Sometimes if they were fresh we might lope the fence line of a small pasture for thirty minutes or so before ever trying to untrack on a cow. That seemed work on them. Maybe something similar would work with your horse.

Good Luck.

[OldKat]

@jenjudkins 8301 wrote:

Ed, I’ll bet he did some pulling competitions. What you describe is typical for marginally trained horses used for pulling. He is anticipating the load and the clink of the hitch. When he realizes its not there, he comes back to you. Like any pattern, I suspect with repetition, he’ll get the idea that he isn’t being hitched to something too heavy for him to handle and he will settle.

OldKat…what were you thinking? I’m curious…

Jen,

Almost overlooked this question. You haven’t been talking to my wife have you? I hear that a whole lot these days; “Stephen, what were you thinking?” 😉

Actually, I figured most people would say that it had something to do with the horse being concerned that he was being asked to pull too heavy of a load at some point in the past. Which is what I would have said & in fact did say in a PM to highway. I just wanted to see what others said as a way of testing my thinking. I wasn’t specifically thinking about the “pulling horse aspect”, but then again since we don’t even have those down here I don’t usually even think about them at all. I’ve never seen one in person(a horse pull), but I’d like to some day.

Anyway, I hope that highway can get it all sorted out.:confused:

[Ed Thayer]

I am more relaxed today and reflected on the other days events. I ground drove OZ today with good sucsess. I had my wife Jane head off OZ while I backed him to the log. No cart, just single tree and chain.

He was still a little agitated but he did stand in place while I hitched the chain.

When I released him to go he flew into the load and after about 4 steps went right to walking normally. I ground drove him around the field twice and gave him a couple of breaks. Each time we moved forward after a break he walked on fine. Did not lunge at all.

So my specific question is how do I break him of this? Should I continue to hitch while someone heads him? Ideally, if I am working alone I can not have him moving on his own.

Do any of you keep the halter on the horse under the bridle to tie him up while you move a stick or cut a limb?

[Anonymous]

i always leave the halter on, loop the lead rope up over the hame. tie the horse up to a safe spot when ever needed. chainsaw away. you have got some great input on this thread, wish i had this forum in my first few years, which was just a few years ago. every time you reach a new level, and feel your starting to get it, and it’s clicking , then it happens, backwards, it feels like your starting over, discouragement. try try again. sometimes some time off, then start out slow, then it starts clicking again, and before you know it, your understanding it more deeper and fully than before. in my mind , i’ve failed more times than i can count, with the same horse. but you know what, were still at it doing better than ever. oh yeah, what carl said, don’t yank on that horses mouth. bob h.

[grey]

I haven’t read through all the replies but in your latest post you mention how your horse “flew into the load” when you “released” him.

Perhaps you could bring his energy down a few notches (which hopefully will result in better manners when asked to stand) if you worked on getting him to start more softly. Can’t say just what you’ll need to do to accomplish that… probably a combination of things. Maybe hold him tighter and only eeeeeeease up on the line pressure as he is moving off. Maybe soften your “go forward” cue – whatever that is (kiss, smooch, cluck, “walk”) – so you are only barely touching the throttle and not mashing on the gas pedal (not saying that is what you are doing).

There are times when I have to start a load with fairly firm contact on my horse’s mouth to keep her from trying to lunge with it. Dropping down into granny gear and slowly but steadily lugging the load along is harder than slamming into it and trying to power the load out quickly. I know my horses would be hitting the load hard if I let them.

You horse seems to be anticipating a high-energy situation, but I can’t tell if he is dreading the energy or looking forward to it.

[Andre]

Just my two cents.
When a horse moves like you explain, I stand like a post.
Let them move into the pressure of the bit, and release it themselves.
I might hold a stick that they back into if they back up.
This creates a “zone” that is pressure free.
Move forward…bit
Back up…stick. never hit, just hold it so they back into it themselves.
I also never give the go ahead command till they stand still, might only be a couple seconds but if they are moving around I wait.
This has worked well for me.

[OldKat]

Okay, now I am puzzled by a behavior. I need some feedback please. I have been finding things for my mares to pull around; old posts, an old gate, etc. Mostly though I have been pulling tires around and every few days I add another tire. These are not tractor tires, just 16” light truck tires chained together. I started with one tire, then two, three & so forth. I am now at 5.

When I got to 3 tires chained together my Maggie started prancing. Not when I am hitching or unhitching from the single-tree … she stands like a rock then. However as soon as she starts moving she wants to start high stepping. It seems like when we make a turn and the traces rub on her hocks she gets flustered and she never seems to calm down afterward. I tried the suggestion that Andre’ made to highway of letting her push into the bit, but instead of backing away from it she just pushes even harder. I did succeed in getting her to move at a slower walking speed, but her actions still said “prance”. If you have ever seen the Rose Bowl Parade where the mounted posse rides palominos that prance, but are moving at a REAL slow forward speed you will understand what she was doing.

She does NOT seem to be lunging to start the load. I have both of them trained where they will step up into the collar with a command of “step”, which means just that. They both will “step” on command until the traces are tight, and both will just stand there with traces taught without fidgeting. With a cluck and a “getup” though, Maggie starts her prancing. I don’t really get the sense that she is trying to run away from the load because I have given her completely slack lines and her speed increases, but she does not bolt.

Rachel, the other mare, has taken right to this pulling thing, especially considering I had the mishap where I let my lines slip through my hands and pop her on the rump. She got over that little screw up like nothing ever happened. The next time I hitched her everything was all good. However Maggie is not enjoying these exercises at all. Quite frankly I’m not having that much fun with it either. Suggestions?

[Does’ Leap]

OldKat:

I have only been working horses for a few years, but I’ll give you my 2 cents. After my wreck 14 months ago, it took a long time to get back my horses trust and comfort (I had a lot of prancing too). I did this by going back to “ground zero” or kindergarten. For my horses, this was pulling an empty wagon attached to a forecart around the barn. Basically I bored them to death. I slowly added things that were louder and more stressful for them. From the forecart to an evener, just ground driving. Than an evener dragging some cans or something noisy. Then small logs. I wouldn’t progress to the next step until they walked on a lose line. I was also doing some roundpen work and groundwork, mixing it in at will.

It took a while to get them back to where they were and they have progressed way beyond the point before the wreck and are doing great.

Good luck.

George

[OldKat]

@Does’ Leap 9551 wrote:

OldKat:

I have only been working horses for a few years, but I’ll give you my 2 cents. After my wreck 14 months ago, it took a long time to get back my horses trust and comfort (I had a lot of prancing too). I did this by going back to “ground zero” or kindergarten. For my horses, this was pulling an empty wagon attached to a forecart around the barn. Basically I bored them to death. I slowly added things that were louder and more stressful for them. From the forecart to an evener, just ground driving. Than an evener dragging some cans or something noisy. Then small logs. I wouldn’t progress to the next step until they walked on a lose line. I was also doing some roundpen work and groundwork, mixing it in at will.

It took a while to get them back to where they were and they have progressed way beyond the point before the wreck and are doing great.

Good luck.

George

George,

Actually your reply may have the seeds of the solution embedded in it. Neither of my mares has tried to bolt away from me, but Maggie (the mare in question) did run with the Amish guy that was farming with them in the spring of 2008. She is very sensitive to sounds that are coming from behind her and he was driving her to his steel tired buggy on a bumpy, gravelly road when she had enough and ran. After I got them back I did exactly what you suggested; went back to kindergarten, round pen, ground driving etc starting last fall and she has been progressing very nicely up until now. However, it just dawned on me after reading your reply that she is probably responding more to the noise the tires make as they slide along the ground than the fact that she is pulling something. I had thought of tin cans on a string, chains banging on pipe, etc but had not pursued it. I think I will work more on desensitizing her to sound and will work on that before I ask her to do something that I know she is not yet comfortable with.

The prancing itself does not bother me, other than I know that it can feed on itself until she works herself into a complete tizzy and that can be a real problem. Also, I don’t want her stirring the other mare up. I want them working on a loose line as you suggested, and that is where I was when I was just ground driving her (and the two of them as a team) and not dragging anything so I know she can do it. Just a little more effort is called for on my part. That and maybe being a little smarter than the source of the problem.

There are some other things that I have been toying with, but have also not pursued like getting an open bridle for her so she can see what is going on around her. Guess I need to get busy.

Thanks for your feedback, it was right on target. Also encouraging to know that other people have overcome similar issues.

All The Best,
SRR

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