The future of the dairy cow??

[clayfoot-sandyman]

I agree, it sounds wonderful what Ixy’s doing, hope to see it sometime. I went for ‘mobstocking’ , backfencing etc after reading Voisin’s ‘Grass Productivity’ but then kind of went off the idea when I realised how tight I’d have to fence my beasts, how much fiddling with electric fences was involved, how little opportunity I’d leave my animals to seek out shade/shelter or particular plants, and how (my) sheep are masterful at getting through temporary fences.
I just opted for a lower stocking density and am gradually fencing/hedging my fields into 1-2acre areas and am upping the stocking rate gradually as I’m able to graze more effectively.
A farming friend once told me an old saying… that ‘a beast shouldn’t hear the church bells ring twice on the same field’ – I guess even in Britain some farmers in certain areas traditionally practised this sort of principle but it’s been lost since a large percentage of hedgerows got grubbed out, between the 1950’s – 1980’s, somewhere in the region of 150,000 miles in the UK is one estimate.

[OldKat]

@clayfoot-sandyman 19498 wrote:

I got really into the idea of ‘mobstocking’ , backfencing etc after reading Voisin’s ‘Grass Productivity’ but then kind of went off the idea when I realised how tight I’d have to fence my beasts, how much fiddling with electric fences was involved, how little opportunity I’d leave my animals to seek out shade/shelter or particular plants, and how (my) sheep are masterful at getting through temporary fences.

I just opted for a lower stocking density and am gradually fencing/hedging my fields into 1-2acre areas and am upping the stocking rate gradually as I’m able to graze more effectively.
A farming friend once told me an old saying… that ‘a beast shouldn’t hear the church bells ring twice on the same field’ – I guess even in Britain some farmers in certain areas traditionally practised this sort of principle but it’s been lost since a large percentage of hedgerows got grubbed out, between the 1950’s – 1980’s, somewhere in the region of 150,000 miles in the UK is one estimate.

I had a similar issue. I lease land, and the best place I have is unfortunately 20 miles from my house. It is not possible to go there every day, much less twice daily to move cows. There was no point creating 1/2 to 1 acre cells that I can’t mange anyway. There are no youngsters living nearby or otherwise I would pay one to do it for me; assuming I could even find a reliable one.

There is an outside chance I might be able to lease a place in the near future that is only 1/2 mile from my house. If I get that place I am going to throw every MIG concept I can think of at it and let the chips fall where they may.

[clayfoot-sandyman]

Old Kat, don’t know if you read this article by Joel Salatin re; grazing. I found it thoroughly inspiring….http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/May08_Salatin.pdf

Ed

[jac]

Hi Ed.. its funny you mentioned that page but i found it after talking with you all about mobstocking.. awwsome page with a ton of info and as you say ..inspiring… my only reservations were the fact the cattle couldnt roam as such. I wonder if it could be incorperated into a farm rotation though..12 hrs on the high stocking rate field then 12 hrs on another field ?…
John

[Nat(wasIxy)]

You need to read Julius reuchel’s ‘Grass Fed Cattle’ – herd animals such as cattle have evolved as..a herd 😉 This ‘design’ benefits grass because it forces them to graze everything, and because grass is able to cope with grazing but weeds aren’t, they are outcompeted, and the grass taken out is put back in almost exactly where it came from (the sun and natural cycles of the soil life once left when the herd move on top up what’s gone to the animal – the sun is free energy, you are basically harvesting that free energy via grass and cattle). The herd naturally stays tight, because any that stray are picked off by the predators that also feed off this system.

I do not see the extra fun in ‘roaming’ the same field for days, weeks on end – eating all the good bits first and nibbling them off constantly whenever they dare to regrow. That is when your soil compaction and parasites build up etc. On the mobstocking system, 99% of the land is fallow 99% of the time, this allows it to recover quickly, and produce more. With set stocking, however low density (unless you have an area the size of the serengeti, and then you would most likely find your cattle mobstock themselves anyway!), you will NEVER improve the carrying capacity, only with inputs – splash more nitrogen on, a bit more grass, put some more cows on. Does the cost of the beef cover the cost of the nitrogen…maybe, just about..for now…?

Our cattle are constantly on the move and get a lovely lush sward every single day, that they can wrap their tongues around – sounds a bit better than searching for what everyone’s missed and then waiting at the ring feeder once the grass runs out?

But, by cutting down you field size and moving more often or ‘grazing effectively’ as you put it – you are moving in the right direction, it is essentially mobstocking, but not as efficient as it could be so you’d have to accept slightly inferior results. If you’re happy with that, that’s fine. When I did it with my own cattle before moving in with rob, they were moved every other day, or perhaps every 4 days (before parasites start hatching and re-infecting). It was fine for steers that didn’t need fattening so quick and suited my slightly lazier nature 😉

[Nat(wasIxy)]

@jac 19555 wrote:

Hi Ed.. its funny you mentioned that page but i found it after talking with you all about mobstocking.. awwsome page with a ton of info and as you say ..inspiring… my only reservations were the fact the cattle couldnt roam as such. I wonder if it could be incorperated into a farm rotation though..12 hrs on the high stocking rate field then 12 hrs on another field ?…
John

As cattle are ruminants and get a bellyfull of grass and then go where there isn’t any grass to cud it, this would be fine from a feeding point of view. however, from a disease and parasite building-up point of view, it is not as good. If feeding them is your only concern and you are happy to still worm and jab and things then that’s OK for you. Although, worming could again affect your grazed fields as wormers kill beneficial soil life so the manure won’t be rotted correctly/at the right rate so they wouldn’t be performing at their best either. Personally, I’d rather that ‘sacrifice’ exercise field was productive and making me money, and I was saving the cost and consequences of reliance on wormers etc.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

@OldKat 19489 wrote:

BTW: all of this may not seem like it has much to do with the point of this thread; the future of dairy cows. I don’t think so, because I think ultmately the confinement dairies will collapse under their high costs of doing business (overhead) and the fact that they are selling a commodity product at a very low margin. I honestly think in the long run seasonal, grass based dairies will become the norm. Of course, I will probably never live that long to see it.

Ditto to that…

[Nat(wasIxy)]

@OldKat 19497 wrote:

I suspect that Ixy has neighbors that are sitting around watching and waiting for her experiment to fail so they can say “Told you that wouldn’t work here!” My guess is they are in for a long wait. Sounds like she has it going for her. Go Ixy.

LOL oh yeah we’ve been told ‘nothing will grow’ if we don’t do X…not applying ANY compost/muck for the last 6yrs has been the real killer, even we didn’t realise that was possible!

We do see quite clearly that the neighbours have fields like nibbled carpet, all year round – whereas we have 60 cattle and 30 sheep on 40 acres, never feed anything that isn’t grass and never have to buy silage, and only house for 2 months, AND most of the field are lush at any one time 😀 That does make you feel smug…

[dlskidmore]

@Ixy 19559 wrote:

We do see quite clearly that the neighbours have fields like nibbled carpet, all year round

I see nibbled carpet as one of the possible products that comes out of keeping livestock. Any reason not to have different fields on different rotations? (Areas you want trimmed in short rotation, the back fields in longer rotations. ABACADAE…)

[jac]

Ixy the only down side I can see is I wouldnt have to keep draft horses.!! no hay to make, no manure to spread, no plowing or clipping to do:eek::).. what date are you planning that open day ?..
John

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Jac I keep telling you – it’s not an open day, you’re visiting – come whenever you like! hehe

As for nibbled carpet – sure, some of our is, directly after grazing, but the it grows back – on the neighbours far the whole area is always nibbled carpet because it constantly has sheep and/or cattle on it. Then they all get fed from a ring feeder. Makes us frustrated because what’s the point of him having the land? He could rent it to us and keep his stock in the shed the other 6 months of the year and we’d make full use of it 😀 Or, we’d gladly help him do the same, he’s an older chap and we don’t like to see him struggle – we’d love him to pay less for feed, do less work and have more cattle making more of a margin.

[clayfoot-sandyman]

Ixy – how do you work out your stocking density for this system and how tight you then keep them – is there a m2 per head of cattle/sheep per day equation, in relation to grass growth (uh oh, that sounds complex!)???
Also how do you fence in sheep, my experience is they’re buggars for getting through electric fences – all that wooly insulation!?

Ed

[Nat(wasIxy)]

We don’t get too scientific with it I’m afraid – some people go into trample factor and plate counters and all that, but we just compare how much grass we have with how fat the cattle are and adjust accordingly.

As for sheep – sometimes they will stay behind a couple of strands of wire but mostly the only thing we’ve found that works is nets – our british breeds are bred to roam rather than stay in a real tight flock like others. BUT, the saving grace with sheep is that it’s much easier to fatten them on grass alone – they aren’t pregnant whilst lactating and tbh, you get very fatty lamb if you stuff them with food – grassfed lamb is nice and noticeably lean. This means they don’t need to be moved so intensively so can have a bigger area. We give them a new field each year and halve that, then halve one of the halves. they swap between the two quarters once they’ve eaten up and when the spare half gets overgrown, the cattle graze the main growth, then once it’s recovered to sheep-length, we halve it and swap them on those two quarters instead.

[clayfoot-sandyman]

Got interested in this mob-stocking business now…..and have started reading Joel Salatin’s ‘Salad-bar Beef’.
One thing he talks about is there being a herd size where cattle begin to mob which he sets at about 50 head. Before this he says you’re just fencing them tightly but they haven’t fully enterd into the herd psychology where they graze tightly and quickly and efficiently. He says that when in smaller no’s they tend to express their individualities more, are more erratic in their grazing, are noisier when the strip is grazed etc .
Any experience of this?? I have about 25 acres of grass. Don’t think I’d ever get up to 50 head of cattle…..:confused:

[near horse]

@clayfoot-sandyman 19635 wrote:

Got interested in this mob-stocking business now…..and have started reading Joel Salatin’s ‘Salad-bar Beef’.
One thing he talks about is there being a herd size where cattle begin to mob which he sets at about 50 head. Before this he says you’re just fencing them tightly but they haven’t fully enterd into the herd psychology where they graze tightly and quickly and efficiently. He says that when in smaller no’s they tend to express their individualities more, are more erratic in their grazing, are noisier when the strip is grazed etc .
Any experience of this?? I have about 25 acres of grass. Don’t think I’d ever get up to 50 head of cattle…..:confused:

The “buzz” now is all about “pounds of animal” stocked per area rather than animal number.

[Author]

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