Tie Stall vs Box Stall

[Ed Thayer]

Hello all,

Can someone explain the reason for the two different approaches? Is it preference or are the benifits fron on to another? Maybe space is a consideration.

Thanks, Ed

[becorson]

a few thoughts:
certainly being in tie stalls makes for less waste in hay and bedding, so that is a major plus for people who are trying to save money.
i think the mews and stables of the various royal families in Europe traditionally used tie stalls (standing stalls) for their horses in work, (as opposed to their breeding stock) so i don’t think it’s JUST space/ or money .
horses in standing stalls learn to tolerate being handled and tended from behind without being able to turn around, so that might help them as driving horses… ?

on the other hand, researchers say that horses can only experience REM sleep when they are lying down and they can’t lie down, flat on their sides, in a standing stall.

An ideal situation might be horses in standing stalls part of the day, and turned out part of the day, too.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Ed, there are lots of different factors and considerations. I will suggest just some and describe what I use.

First off, how the stalls fit with the rest of the horse areas, is important. Is there an all weather area other than the stalls? Will they be out on pasture in season? All day or daily turnout?

Where do you keep harnesses, and where do you want to put them on?

Also, the number of animals, any interest in breeding now or in the future, cost, and space available are also considerations. Are there other animals; a cow, a bull, a new group of piglets that could also make use of a box stall.

Having said all that, a row of tie stalls is the cheapest and easiest way to put six draft animals in a barn. I use a 36 foot pole barn with a horse feed trough from end to end. the trough is divided into six parts. There is a five foot feed ally opposite the tie stalls. Each twelve foot bay has two tie ropes and one automatic waterer. The waterers are typical dairy barn type and drained in the winter but in the summer they work great. Horses are led in from pasture and each goes right to their stall to get a drink as I let them off the lead rope. There are no dividers between the horses, but these are wide tie stalls. I used to tie the horses at night in the winter and during the day, (when not working) during the summer. I don’t tie them up at night in the winter any more. My harnesses hang on the opposite side of the barn. I started to harness the horses in the stalls and that worked well; then I added tie ropes infront of the harness and now I harness there. I can put the lines on four abreast and drive them out of the fourteen foot opening. Drive them right in and park in front of were the harnesses hang. This system is very economical and works well with a few exceptions. I have found older horses don’t benefit from being tied more than a few hours at a time. Also, for a mare that is going to foal, a good, safe, large, box stall is really needed. It is not a time to be tying a bunch of gates together.

Well, I think I have rambled long enough, I can take a picture of the horses tied in the barn if you want. Donn

[Robert MoonShadow]

Donn ~ Did you design your barn this way, or did you ‘inherit’ it (came this way)? It sounds very functional.

[Donn Hewes]

I built the barn in 2002. For the first year or so there were no walls down stairs, just enough boards nailed up to keep animals in. After I built an apartment upstairs and lived though the first winter, I started to think about how I wanted the rest of it done. This extra time probably served me well. It took a couple more years before all the feeders and waterers were in. Now three and a half sides have walls and there are a couple of doors. Today I would probably build it a little different, but it is efficient. I would like to have one good box stall and I don’t. I would like to have a good room for harness, but it is hard to beat harness hanging on the wall in the summer. My barn is very open and one end has no door, snow wind and rain all come in to some extent. I can use that end as a run – in in the winter time. I have an armored pad right there, so when we get too much rain the horses will find them selves confined to a small area. When I am rich and famous I think I will build a new barn with a stall for my Jack, and all the bred mares!

[Ed Thayer]

Thanks for the info,

Our Barn is a restored 35’x70′ three story new england cow barn. I have put a lot of work into the sills and supporting structure over the last 10 years or so. When I did the horse section over I had to raise the cieling to 9 feet and built 2 12’x12′ box stalls. There is an adjoining tack room and 5′ aisle with cross ties to groom and harness.

Looking back it seems to be a lot of wasted space for other critters or even more horses at a later time. I know from experiance that the show circuit seems to think that tie stalls are cruel because it does not allow free movement when in the barn.

My horse stalls have a dutch door in each stall that goes directly to a graveled paddock outside. The horses come and go as they please and only get shut in if the wind chill is a factor.

I never considered the issue of bedding for the animals. They sure use a lot of it in the box stall arrangement.

[Rod]

My horses are in a 12×20 box stall open to the SE and can come and go as they please to a small 1/2 acre paddock. The get fed from a round bale feeder in the end of the stall under cover. Water is from a continuously running pipe in a tank outside. I don’t have to clean the box stall because they go outside in a single place (a big pile ).

[sanhestar]

@highway 5792 wrote:

I know from experiance that the show circuit seems to think that tie stalls are cruel because it does not allow free movement when in the barn.

it’s not just thought as a cruelty, in Germany (with the exception of Bavaria and Nordrhein Westfalen) it actually IS a violation of animal wellfare to keep a horse in a tie stall. Several studies prove that a large number of horses kept in a tie stall will develop abnormal behavior.

Some people argue that horses that work most of the day won’t mind to be kept in a tie stall but I think that especially a hard working horse deserves the space to lay down and stretch out completely for REM sleep phases to recover from the days work and be fresh and rested the next day (as the resting periods throughout the day have already been disrupted by the working hours). Also to have enough space to move a bit during the night.

If you’ve ever been forced to lay in a bed that’s too small for you to sleep comfortably after hard work you might be able to relate to that.

As for unused/wasted space resp. being able to keep more animals: a better solution – in my opinion – would be to tear down the separating walls between the boxes and create a “pen box” – combined with the paddock. This always done under consideration for the minimum space requirements for the individual animal:

according to german and swiss animal wellfare laws

Box stall: at least (2x height at withers)2

I can’t formate it correctly. It should read

(2x withers height) x (2x withers height)

For groups of 5 and more horses in one large pen the measurement of the pen can be reduced by maximum 20% – if the animals get along well with each other.

In large pens there’s another advantage: you don’t need to have the whole space filled with bedding. If you place a beam to stop the bedding from sliding through the whole box you can create a sleeping space with bedding and a walking/standing/eating place without bedding.

[Ed Thayer]

It is interesting they have an actual law against tie stalls. Never heard that before.

I do know that my horses will lie down to sleep at knight. I have found them this way in the morning when going to the barn to feed them. I assume they appreciate the space to do so.

[near horse]

Several studies prove that a large number of horses kept in a tie stall will develop abnormal behavior.

I don’t see a problem with tie stalls any more than box stalls IF you are using and working with your horses. I have seen plenty of animals exhibiting abnormal behavior from standing in box stalls day after day. It seems to be the lack of interaction w/ others (human, horse, goat or whatever) that triggers this. Solitary confinement whether in a tie stall or box stall is still solitary confinement and extended periods under these conditions can not be good for the horse . Use them and interact with them or get rid of them – for their sake.

[dominiquer60]

I see the tie vs box stall debate similar to most other discussions, bits, blinders and yokes, it is all about what works best for you. On an almost daily basis I see 6 digit show horses rotting in their box stalls from boredom. The lucky ones get regular turnout and have a private barn with 12×12 stalls, these are by far usually the least neurotic. The less fortunate live in 9’6″X9’6″ temporary stalls, get the tar ridden out of them, and maybe get hand walked for a while later in the day, the rest of the day they are in their cell. They crib, weave, stand with butts to the door, fight over the tops of the stalls and in general are miserable.

I think either type of stall works fine as long as the horses get worked, have a chance for turnout and sleep comfortably. Sleep is important and they all do it, I love working in the stables at night and listening to all the horses sleeping, snoring and dreaming. There is no doubt that they dream, some really get into it like my dog, running and nickering in their sleep. I have also seen horses sleep in tie stalls, sheds, pastures, a bedded alley way, etc. It is nice to give them a well bedded box stall with a bank to rest their head on like a pillow, but I know that i will never be able to afford that much bedding or space in “my barn.” They both have their place and a combination is good, for example my father owns a turn of the century (1900, not 2000) barn that has 3 tie stalls and a box, it is always nice to have options.

Erika

[Bess]

Tie Stall vs Box Stall vs Run-In Shed

There’s a book called “The Perfect Stall” by a vet, who owns Friesians, Karen E. N. Hayes. I saw her speak a couple years in a row. She knows her stuff on bedding horses. She studied at Cornell and has done a lot of research. Put pedometers on horses, checked for arthritis in joints and breathing problems too. Her findings are briefly these: Horses need to sleep flat down and out – on their sides – a few hours a day or they are not really sleeping. As the earlier writer said, they need to be down and out to get REM sleep. A horse that stands and sleeps is not sleeping. Not sleeping is stressful and takes a big toll on horses – think colic, ulcers, bad behavior, bad performance. Minimum stall size is 16 x 20. Anything less invites early arthritis in pasterns etc. Horses were built to move about 10 miles a day, wandering about and grazing. Again, stalling a horse is a colic, ulcer, bad behavior concern, Hayes says. Next, is the urine, manure issue. Cornell did studies of the air quality in stalls. In multi-million dollar barns in Kentucky, time and again air quality was far below OSHA minimum requirements for humans. Think urine – which is primariliy ammonia – in bedding and asking the animals not just to breathe from the stall floor but eat as well. Hayes said the ammonia readings are so high in most stalls that oxygen masks would be required if the cleaning of stalls was a manufacturing facility! In the wild, horses may eat 5 feet or so near manure, but move farther away from urine, she claims. She says if a horse is a “stall pig” it is because they are going nuts trying to bury their waste to get away from the smell and breathing problems. Cornell scoped 2 and 3 yr old multi-million dollar race horses in Kentucky that were box stalled most of the day and found them to have airway and lung damage of a horses much older as well as early signs of arthritis – joint stiffness, etc. Next on her hit list for elimination was bedding. She says it is bad for horses to lie in sawdust – they breathe in the fine particles and it clogs their airways and hurts lung capacity. All sawdust and bedding also contains chiggers that can cause allergies and skins problems, she says. Bed deep and it also negatively affects horse hooves – which need to be supported by earth. She urges humans to lie in sawdust some time and see how they like it. In the wild, horses have one or two others serve as a look out and the others sleep. They prefer to be on slightly elevated ground, on grass or knocked down tall grass. Horses whose heads are tied when eating or trailering cannot clear their airways. They need to drop their heads to the earth and blow out. Even if you set the hay feeder at breast height, a horse will snag hay then drop their heads low. Tie high and you are inviting penumonia. So, what is her solution? She recommends Run in stalls, with minimum 6 foot or so minimum wall height, that open to the air. Door height, if you want to shut them into their run in shed has to be at least 5 feet or they will try and jump it, she says. A mix of earth and peat moss for flooring, a minimum of sawdust/wood bedding on top of that, free access to a paddock or pasture for exercise. And let the horses see each other. She even urges people to get ceiling fans installed in the run in or box stalls – turned on lowest setting keeps bug off and moves ammonia smells out. I encourage folks to get a copy of Karen Hayes’ book. She says too many people literally kill their horses with kindness. Might as well get her and other vets’ recommendation for feeding in here too: Feeding 4 to 6 small meals of hay a day on a regular schedule is much better for your horse – helps prevent stress which leads to colic and ulcers – than once or twice a day. Theory is horses are grazing nibblers, not leopards loading up on a kill and their stomach acid is churning all the time. On a different but also important horse keeper note, – music in a barn. A study – not from this vet – shows horses can get sick from a radio playing in a barn – any kind of music. Think stress again. Horses crave quiet. They are always in fear of a cougar or some predator sneaking up on them. They want/need to be able to hear anything that is coming and they are herd animals who want/need to hear and talk with each other. Especially when they are being held captive in a stall and can’t see or hear others or even run away as Nature intended. Anyhow, take it or leave it. We all do the best we can. I certainly don’t have a perfect barn or stall. But I do the best I can with them. Sick horses cost money!!! Healthy ones are expensive enough! LOL

[jen judkins]

@Bess 5814 wrote:

Tie Stall vs Box Stall vs Run-In Shed
There’s a book called “The Perfect Stall” by a vet, who owns Friesians, Karen E. N. Hayes.

I’ve read her book and its a good read, but the whole concept of a ‘perfect stall’ for a horse is alittle bit of an oxymoron;). Horses need shelter, yes. And I get that in a situation where your horse needs to be in a stall for a significant amount of time, there are things you can do to make it as comfortable as possible, but lets face it..a horse was not meant to be locked in a stall for any length of time…be it 20 x 20 box or a straight stall.

Most of the folks I know using tie stalls, don’t tie their horses longer than needed to dry them out after a workout or to feed them. Then they go right back out again, which IMO is the best management.

If you want to read a good book about simulating a natural environment for horses (and it is cheap to do) read Jaime Jackson’s book ‘Paddock Paradise’. Once you set it up, there is very little maintainence and the horses just do their own thing.

My advice, Ed, if you are building a barn from scratch…think about what makes life easier for you and is most natural for the herd. Turns out many things that are natural for the horse, also make your life easier as well.

My barn is new (2 years old). I set it up so that 3 12 x 12 stalls open onto my ‘track’ which is a quarter mile (runs around my upper pasture…see Jaime Jacksons book for details). This serves as my winter paddock. The horses can run laps if they wish and they do. The 3 stalls are shared by 6 horses (2 of which are minis). I frequently find 3 horses laying down together in one stall…its truly amazing. I very rarely shut them in (in fact never this year). I have a spare stall on the other side of the aisle for unusual circumstances. I built a ‘farmers porch’ this year over the 3 stalls which adds additional cover.

But the truth is, on a nice day, even in the dead of winter, I find my horses laying flat out in the snow. Reno, Andre’s horse, who is staying with us spends several hours a day laying in the snow…so its not obvious to me that horse need shavings or substantial bedding to get rest.

[Carl Russell]

I see no reason to keep a horse in any type of stall. I have tie stalls for when I bring my horses in to feed before harnessing. As Donn described they are an efficient way to use the space. I have had a box stall, but turned it into two tie stalls for my oxen. I used the box stall for calvings in poor weather, and for an infirmed horse. Either way my horses are out except for one of two nights a month during winter, in case of freezing rain.

Tie stalls with feed lane in front, feed trough, alley way for harnessing and manure handling behind, with harnesses hung conveniently, with a box stall for emergency is my preference.

Carl

[near horse]

Wow. It’s surprising that horses have even survived the poor bedding, housing and feeding practices we’ve foisted on them :rolleyes: Some of this is starting to approach PETA levels. My horses are looking for a 2 stall flat w/ shag carpet and roomservice. I told them to get a second job.:D

[Author]

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