Training Them Old School

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Geoff, My apologies if I offended you, likewise anyone else. It is not really fair or accurate to put people in a “group”, when it is people I don’t know very well. I guess I think we agree in a lot of ways. What I think is needed is more specific training tools the new teamsters can use. We have focused on teaching the beginner, (whether that is you or not) how to drive, ie. hold the lines, haw is left and gee is right, whoa to stop. This would be enough if the horses were like cars, but they are not. We need to add to this basic beginning some tools to prepare the teamster for taking the lead. I am trying to develop that idea so when I try to help someone in the future that will be my set of tools. It is, and always will be, hard to put these actions into words, so much of the skills be sought are involve timing and awareness. These are hard to teach in person. Don’t let anyone here get to far under your saddle, let them know when they do. Donn

To answer just one of your questions, A horse should stand calmly for harnessing. This can be simple to achieve or it can be hard. Maybe you could start a new thread on just that one question. Sun coming up, better go feed em’

[Ed Thayer]

This is some of the best information I have read yet.

I realize that creating a working relationship with the horse is most important, however this does not seem to be as easy as it sounds for someone who has not spent their whole life growing up with them.

Case in point, I have had and been around hunting dogs all my life. Some people can not and never will understand them enough to train one for a specific purpose beyond sleeping on the couch. I have trained them and hunted them successfully for several years.

I am not so sure I will have that ability with horses. I hope I will as it will determine my future with them on the Farm. I have been reading books, reading these posts and recieving guidance from my wonderfull neighbor next door who has loads of experience. I even joined the Granite State draft and pony association. But I still get frustrated when I work my Haflinger for two weeks with no apparent issues and the next time I go to the pasture to put the harness on he decides to walk away from me and it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Most people on this thread can identify whats wrong and probably give advice on how to correct that behavior. But I am new, I don’t carry my laptop to the barn to recieve and post e-mails as to why my horse is not cooperating, I walk away frustrated wondering what I did wrong.

My point is, not all of us are experienced teamsters and we learn with the best means available. That is why I enjoy reading these posts and learning form all of you.

[jen judkins]

I’ve enjoyed this thread. Couple comments…

When I took Peanut to Ted for training, a casual onlooker might have observed Ted working with Peanut briefly one day and then slapping a harness on him the next day for a spin around the pasture with his trained horse, Clayton. Over the next 2 days he was pulling a manure spreader and discing. Sounds like a pretty accelerated program, huh?!? What is not included in this story and might not be obvious to the simple observer, is that Peanut had quite a bit of what I like to call ‘foundation training’. He was handled since he was 3 months old, taught to give to pressure, handle ropes around his flanks, learned to be tied, wore a bridle and a saddle. I even rode him twice. By the time Ted got him at 2, he was pretty easy to work with.

I think the ideal situation to get a well trained confident work horse (which BTW, is something very different from a harness racing standardbred) is to start with a very young horse and a very experienced teamster. The horse gets a good foundation and when it is time for the harness, its a non-issue. We’ve heard from many teamsters in other threads about this type of success.

However, sometimes the situation is not perfect…:p There will be no one way to handle a horse that needs retraining, or has little foundation for what ever reason. These can be BIG horses, with BIG energy and there are gonna be times when you need to do what it takes to get them into the program. Its a simple safety issue.

One of the things that I think make experienced teamsters so successful is their focus on the task. Horses dig that kind of direction and leadership. Sometimes, one can get so muddled down in minutia triing to take little baby steps, our horses get bored or worse, try to take over. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt:rolleyes:.

As for horses only being able to think about one thing at a time….well, I think that is a huge oversimplification. There are smart horses and there are not so smart horses, but all horses work well with patterns. These patterns can be quite complex,…surprisingly so. I agree that training should be developed in such a way that it makes sense to the horse. Mark Rashid talks about how each step in training is like a link in a chain…it should link to one of the previous links….but he’d be the first one to tell you to get out and DO something with your horse. Success probably has more to do with how much purpose there is in your training, than the number of steps from a to b. JMHO, as usual.

[Carl Russell]

manesntails;5569 wrote:

Quote:

I can tell you that when you train a horse for anything be it accepting a halter on it’s head and leading or accepting a harness and cart and driving you HAVE TO break the whole thing down into little steps, one building upon the other, in order to TEACH the animal what you want. Just as you would not go in a stall, put a halter on and expect a horse to then lead you have to get the animal accustomed to everything one tiny step at a time.

If you do not do this, as in hooking a horse with no driving experience up with another who is experienced, you are only FORCING the green one to comply. He has no choice but to be pulled along or mimic what his partner is doing. Horses do not have a brain large enough to understand what is going on. What they do those first few times is totally blank out emotionally and are not thinking about what is happening past surviving it.
……

Although there are several aspects of this that I agree with, it is not as simple as numbing the horse to each of the tiny steps. It is more a matter of showing the animal that you are leading them into a new experience, that this tiny step is part of it, you expect them to accept it, there is nothing to fear, but that as the leader you are evaluating the response, and then continuing to lead either back to a place of calm and safety, or on to a new level of experience. These are not machines. Although the one thought at a time is a good place to start, horses are not a programmed to climb a ladder of experience and learning. In fact, I don’t try to TEACH my horses anything, I practice developing a habit that they follow my lead.

As far as FORCE, a box stall, round pen, lead rope, or what ever are all ways to FORCE a horse to comply. It is a personal appreciation of how we use them that differentiates between abuse and cooperation.

Quote:

The horse learns step-by-step each thing that is needed to become a driving horse……

I believe that it is a mistake to suggest that an animal can learn to be anything but a horse. They can learn to accept the lead from a human, and they can learn to accept the hardware and experiences of a driving horse, but they will never learn to be “a driving horse”, that is entirely a human manifestation.

Quote:

I read the post as a Gyp way of “training” which shortcuts the horse to accomodate the owner. I have seen a number of Haflingers who did not want anything to do with people, all trained the hook ’em and make ’em way. ………

There are several parts of this statement that are important. 1) that YOU read the post a certain way. 2) that you are projecting your experience into that of other people. 3) that all horses trained by similar methods are abused. 4) that anyone moving faster through the steps than you are comfortable with, is shortcutting, and that somehow that is inadequate and insufficient.

Quote:

I cannot stand to see ignorance and unthoughtfulness towards animals. To put the animal’s physical or emotional well-being second is not acceptable when it’s actually cheaper to buy one trained correctly than to train one yourself the old-style ignorant way. It takes proper training to make a good willing horse who wants to work for you. If all you are worried about is getting your daily chores done and you do not know how to properly train your horses you should buy them already properly trained instead of abusing them through ignorance and unthinking abuse.

There are so many things about these statements that are right-on, but you seem to be getting a little close to the edge of accusing some of us, which may be your right, but it has been demonstrated on this forum that it is not acceptable, and unproductive. Just because we differ in our approaches, we need not be intolerant of each other. I find it very helpful to realize that while I am willing to share my opinion with others, it is really most important to me.

Quote:

To always remember that a horse cannot think of more than one thing at a time. If you teach one thing at a time you will have a compliant horse when you are finished. If you try and teach more than one thing at a time you are asking for more than they are capable of and that is unfair to the horse.

The same thing goes for humans. There are some who have a really hard time understanding the complexities of working horses, and therefore spend a significant amount of time working on minute details that are the parts that they CAN understand, while there are others who have so much comfort with the work that they in fact can focus entirely on the horse.

The problem that I see developing from the step-by-step approach is a focus on the details, as if the “bit” is as important as the exercise of accepting the initiative of the human. When we focus on the bit, or the particular task, we miss the development of communication, that is really the product of the exercise. This is definitely what Donn is talking about, and I know for a fact that it is the underpinning for many of the old school methods. In fact, whether you want to accept it or not, it is actually what is happening as you go through the process that you describe with the Standardbreds.

I for one think this discussion can be deep and can go a long way to answering a lot of questions. I hope we can shift our focus from the details of personal choices, and use the exercise to improve our communication.

Carl

[J-L]

I had my brother read manesandtails last post and he got a good chuckle out of it as I did. I have to share his response.

“How can a guy who takes a month and 3 people just to hook one up criticize anybody else?”

He raises and trains Quarter Horses for a living. Does some reining and rope horse training and runs a ranch like I do.

We were raised on and around horses. I use horses/mules daily on the ranch, and have for my entire life. Just to get my work done from December to mid May I have to harness two different teams daily (teams that I broke). Trust me, there’s more than one way to skin this cat. I work by myself and have to trust them absolutely and vica versa.

I have to tell you about one mule in particular. I had one come up lame when he got kicked. It was dead of winter, cows were hungry and way too much snow and drifts (12′ drifts in all the tree lines) to get it done with my tractor. My black mule (who is pictured with my 9 yr old son and 5 yr old daughter driving them) got pressed into service. She was broke to lead and pack before this. She got the quick treatment.
I ground drove her one day. Next day gave her the same treatment for 20 minutes but dragging a single tree and a tire. Then left the corral and hooked her to the bobsled with her new team mate. That was that. The first week or so she had some nerves and after that she just settled into her routine. Never has looked back. I use her logging, haying, wagon rides, on the feed line, etc. She is the most trustworthy animal I have ever worked.

Another point I’d like to make is this. Breeding makes a world of difference. Your experience is with hot blooded horses. These cold blooded draft horse have been bred to do this job for a LONG time. Having worked all kinds of horses (from ponies to percherons and lots in between) I can tell you it makes a huge difference, especially in harness.

Manesandtail, in your world it sounds like horses don’t have a job. In my world they do and it’s good for them. Sometimes they’ll get worked or rode hard enough to be tired and maybe even get sore, but it’s not going to kill them. Sore muscles are a fact of life for working people and working animals. I believe standing around their whole lives in a stall or small pasture is more abusive than having a real job.

Donn, your right. I have to look at it from the viewpoint of people disassociated with daily work using and relying animals. It’s a world of experience.

I respectfully disagre with Manesandtails.

[near horse]

Hi –

It’s a new day. I too must apologize, particularly to you Donn. You have been nothing short of honest, polite and professional in your posts and I have been very happy to hear what you have to say. For example:

This would be enough if the horses were like cars, but they are not. We need to add to this basic beginning some tools to prepare the teamster for taking the lead.

Truly very well said.

Highway – While I don’t want to put words in your mouth, I think you and I might be in the same boat (or at least the same pond). While we don’t come from generations of horse folks, we do have experience with and know how to work with, train and behave regarding animals in general. In other words, we do recognize and appreciate signalsand responses presented to us by various species. We’re not some “city-folk idiots” that think food comes from Safeway. That said, with horses there seems to be. as J-L says

more than one way to skin this cat.

With time being one of the more limiting resources for most of us, new teamsters can ill afford to attend the school of hard knocks. We (or at least I) would like to be headed in the right direction at least. Remember, we too are trying to get into the field or woods and work with and enjoy our horses. That’s where we want to go. Safely and confidently.

Jen – you also throw in a good point that can also be used to address many issues.

get out and DO something with your horse.

However, sometimes the situation is not perfect… There will be no one way to handle a horse that needs retraining, or has little foundation for what ever reason. These can be BIG horses, with BIG energy and there are gonna be times when you need to do what it takes to get them into the program.

What does that mean – do what it takes? I know it depends on the situation but give me a hypothetical. Perhaps, address highway’s issue

when I work my Haflinger for two weeks with no apparent issues and the next time I go to the pasture to put the harness on he decides to walk away from me and it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

I do appreciate ALL of your responses (Carl, J-L, Donn, plowboy, Jen) and DO NOT want to be a pain the A– niggling every little comment but I want this to work and will do whatever it takes. Thank you for your patience:)

As an aside regarding what animals respond to and what they desire, back in the 90’s our local university was doing some research with coyotes and had 6 to 10 captive ones on campus. Late one night, some folks from ALF “attacked” the facility and released the coyotes to go out and “live free”. By around 10 the next morning the majority of these animals were back at the facility door waiting for breakfast. Sort of redefines “Animal Welfare” 🙂

[Kent]

I fully agree with J-L.

[jen judkins]

@near horse 5578 wrote:

What does that mean – do what it takes? I know it depends on the situation but give me a hypothetical. Perhaps, address highway’s issue

Hmmm…what DID I mean:o.

I guess what I mean is that there are some instances where you have to get help from someone who knows how to fix the problem. I, like you, have alot of horse experience, but not much experience driving or farming with horses. I did what I could with my youngster and am proud of the training I was able to give him. But there was a point where I had to ‘sh*&% or get off the can’ and I wasn’t prepared to go the next step with him (or more accurately did not know what the next appropriate step was)…so I got help.

As far as I can tell, if you weren’t born on a farm with working horses, you (I) have very little chance to acheive level of comfort with the work to be done to not screw it up at least at first. So you choose, work at your own pace, trial and error, and you might make a few mistakes (some might be more serious than others) OR you get help to get started. I figure its nearly impossible to diagnose a training problem and make an accurate recommendation by email or within this forum. There is a degree of observation or awareness that is necessary to evaluate the problem accurately. I know its frustrating. And you are absolutely right….’there’s alot of competition amoung the knuckleheads’, so that’s an added challenge…finding someone who will approach your horse and his training in a way that you feel comfortable with. After all, you are gonna have to continue the work.

In addition, there are differences in approaches between those who earn a living working their horses, compared to people like me who have day jobs and think of farming with horses as more of a hobby. Those who rely on their horses heavily are so used to getting the work done (focus) that the obstacles are minimized. So they do little in the way of ‘training’….they simply ‘lead’, and the horses follow suit. The intention to get something done is a powerful engine in that regard. I’d love to get to the point where I had that level of leadership with my horses, but I have to work within my own context and that might not be possible given my other responsibilities. Sorry to prattle on…

[Plowboy]

WOW!! All that from what I thought was an enjoyable afternoon with some capable folks. I had so much fun I might go back this weekend. Thanks to everyone that came to my defense. Our personal training agenda is much like Carl’s and by the time they are old enough we just hitch them up. They already know the program and have probably been to the field with their mother for the first year. They stand to be hitched and walk right off. I don’t even own a whip although I have had to use one in the past to speed up some slow colts.
The folks we are helping are currently feeding 50 head of Percherons and a few must go in the spring. If they are at least green broke to harness they will bring more than the $200 you would get for an unbroke 3yr old. I don’t have the time but I make time for friends and my Dad and I enjoy it as much as they enjoy having the help. By spring we may have some greenbroke teams that someone might be able to get some work done with as long as they know how to continue their training. I have nothing to apologize for or be ashamed of. There will always be dreamers, doers and wannabe’s. I’m a doer and have the greatest respect for anyone else thats out there doing or trying to find out how to do these things. Thanks guys some good info is coming out of this discussion. Keep on Keepin on.

[manesntails]

First of all Standardbreds are NOT hot blooded. Their temperments are similar to a Percheron QH cross. Some, as individuals are hotter than others. Hot is not anywhere near a good descriptor for a Standardbred. If we trained Standardbreds the old method, there would be very little compliance or control at high speeds and they would hate their jobs. They are conditioned and their wind and muscle tone is increased day by day the same way a Dr. would tell any human being to train for an atheletic competition. We shortcut NOTHING.

They are handled from weaning, all the ones bred at large Breeding centers like Hanover Shoe farms have been handled and lead, bathe, vet, and trim when sold as yearlings.

Their brains are no different than any other horse’s minds. They are horses and whether you believe it or not you can make a driving horse out of a horse if you teach it properly. Those of you who think you don’t teach your animals anything are fooling yourselves. Every moment you are around one you are teaching it. I have seen old (13-20yo)Standardbred broodmares who hadn’t been hooked since they were three delight at being hooked and going down the road for a drive. I KNOW the difference between an animal trained the OLD STYLE and one trained with time, patience and a step-by-step method.

Yet, those of you who know nothing of the methods I use immediately dismiss them without having one tad of knowledge of the method nor do you care to know. It’s just not as good a method as yours cuz it takes too long.

I’ve had the unfortunate realization in seeing the old style training and what it has done to the animals. If I jerk you out of your backyard and all of a sudden ask you to come do a task you know nothing about you are going to be totally flabberghasted and confused yet, you have no qualms about doing that to your animals. It’s just fine cuz grandpa did it that way. Not in my mind it’s not. There are better ways and if you think it’s a waste of time, perhaps you are not capable of understanding it or being able to read the animal enough to make progress without boring the animal.

I’m a member here and have not made any personal attacks on anyone. If you identify with the methods I am against and take offense, perhaps you should look a bit closer and see what I see. Just because you don’t see it now does not mean it isn’t there.

I have a right to my opinion and when I see a thread titled the “Old Style” I see the horses that have had their minds ruined by it in my head all over again. The Haflingers that wanted nothing to do with people. Who no matter how well they were treated ran from anyone who came with a halter in their hand. Old Style is unnecessary. If you really care for your animals you should want to do better. Like the sign in my feed store says: You can have it fast but it will not be cheap. The horse pays the price for it when you want it fast and to him the price is not cheap.

[jen judkins]

@manesntails 5582 wrote:

Yet, those of you who know nothing of the methods I use immediately dismiss them without having one tad of knowledge of the method nor do you care to know. It’s just not as good a method as yours cuz it takes too long.

Its true, there is alot of room for assumptions:rolleyes:, but I wonder how much time you have spent on a working farm? Its easy to get defensive, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind…its clear you care about horses and that’s all good.:)

[Carl Russell]

I would have to say that I am equally disturbed by people who seem to have many years of horse experience, but still limit their understanding of horses to humanistic preconceptions.

There is absolutely no way that a horse will ever have the ability to understand anything about the human enterprise that they are being used for. Sure they will move at an appropriate gait, or follow a furrow, or escalate energy slowly on a heavy load, because they were conditioned to it, but that in no way means that they are a “driving horse”, or a “plow horse”, or a “logging horse”, unless the human is limited in their view of the animal, and their relationship to it.

One person’s dismissal of this discussion is not enough to reduce the value that can be gained from people with different experiences sharing. I would like the topic to move back to discussion of techniques of training animals while working. I think we are fully aware that there are other people with different sensibilities and processes, but that shouldn’t limit our exchange.

Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

Thank you all; Carl – as usual, you keep focused on the topic of discussion (and are quite good at diplomacy). Jennifer – I always find myself looking forward to when you wade into a conversation – you speak/write clearly, yet with emotion, too. And the rest; you not only speak your opinion(s)… but WHY you have that mindset. That is the most important thing, for me anyways, as a neophyte – the “why”. Manes – I agree a lot with your mindset on the gentler “training” as opposed to the harsh “breaking” methods… but after reading & actually trying to hear these people, I think you’re all agreeing without realizing it. I haven’t read a single posting here (and I actually took the time to reread every one, to be sure) that advocates slapping a harness onto a raw horse & forcing it.. but I also see, as a man trying to create a farm from nothing, while trying to learn to do it w/ draft animals, that I can not take the length of time you do, Manes, to accomplish it. The one common denominator I’ve seen here is summed up for me in this word: visualization. Those of you that are experienced, “see” the entireity of it… the next step, and the next, and the end result… because you’ve done it so many times. As a rank beginner, I don’t – I can’t, as yet – see that far. So, from the back of the classroom, I’m hoping the teachers will quit argufying & refocus on the topic so I can learn more… hell, I’ll turn 50 in November – it’s already a race to see which comes first: plowing my first field behind some donkeys or senility! {No, they’re NOT the same thing!!} 😀
BTW: Whether you’re racing standardbreds, plowing w/ mules, logging w/ horses, drawing maple syrup w/ oxen or messing w/ these animals “as a hobby”… its all valid & its all important –> I’d just as soon leave the elitism to PETA.

[J-L]

Manesandtails, I use the term ‘hot blooded’ to describe horses other than the ‘coldblood’ breeds. The Perch/QH cross is what I call a warm blood. I didn’t mean hot blooded as in hot headed or in a derogatory sense.

I was thinking about this while I was driving up to get a load of hay today (it’s a 3 mile round trip to this stack,plenty of time for thinking). I had a greener mule hooked with one seasoned mule. The steady animal is relied on heavily. The green one does seem to feel the calmness from her. She’s not too comfortable holding a load back on a long downhill for instance, but can see the older mule doing it calmly.
Without really thinking of it as training, you do it most of the time. Daily I can see the progress with the younger one backing into the stackyards, standing up when told to take the slack out of the tugs and starting a load easy. Even minding the bit in the turns. She comes up to a trot when told and will check back when I ask her to ‘walk easy’ or by gently milking the lines. These are important lessons for her to know on the feed ground while I’m at the back of the wagon or sleigh cutting bale strings and feeding. We’ve worked on them steady while we got the work done.
Isn’t that training?
Even after being worked daily for months those guys are waiting at the barn door every morning ready to go in and be harnessed and get a bite of oats. I do get the feeling they enjoy their job for the most part.
Like I always say, a bad day behind a team is way better than a good day on a tractor anyway.

[manesntails]

J-L No, STB’s are coldblooded a Percheron and a QH are both coldbloods. Appendix QH’s are QH X Thoroughbred.

Like I said in a previous post, any interaction you have with an animal is training, good or bad. How many animals trained by being hooked totally green with an older more steady animal can then be hooked alone and taken to town? Just about zero. If you think that in a month’s time the green horse is doing just fine and learned it all from the other horse, just hook him single then tell me what you’ve got…… an emotional wreck. You taught the horse NOTHING. He is not relying on you directing him.

If you don’t instill the training in the horse alone, when you remove him from the team, 9 times out of 10 the horse does not drive well alone. So, did you teach him……? no. The other horse’s confidence is needed for performance. The one falls apart EMOTIONALLY, when the partner is missing. It’s a Huge hole in training. No, actually, it’s evidence of shortcutting and LACK of training.

Take that older steady horse away and even after the new horse is supposedly “broke” he cannot function as well and, in some cases, cannot function at all without his team mate. The animal has no confidence of his own……….Like you said, he got his confidence from the other horse. No confidence was instilled in him alone.

The Amish buy our already broke Standardbreds to pull their buggies to town. They don’t have time to train their own, they get too-slow-for the track STB’s for this job way cheaper than if they raised and trained them themselves. These horses rely on their driver to tell them where to go and have confidence in THEMSELVES that the hooked and drug along trianing method does not give them.

[Author]

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