What we can do.

[Gabe Ayers]

Matthew,

There are on easy answers to your question or dream.

Healing Harvest Forest Foundation was granted public charity status based upon the understanding that the work we were doing, promoting and educating the public about the benefits of – were not profitable to the level of making a living in the modern world with all the costs you mention. Yet this work is for the “public good”.

If being and living in a sustainable way was easy, everyone would already be doing it.

Some suggestions that are factors of some of the more successful practitioners are obvious. We don’t have all the answers and struggle to survive every day, week, season and year.

Live in a part of the country where the land prices are not off the scale of anyone being able to afford it from living on it and the resources of the surrounding community. This may limit ones ability for the spouse to have a high paying job with the safety net features that many folks want and feel they have to have to be secure. So that is a challenge. It is all a challenge.

There may not be such a place on earth anymore. The dominant paradigm, status quo, conventional loggers, foresters and supporting interests, globalization…. etc., have successfully lowered the value of natural resources and the raw materials that most “horse loggers” produce that it is nearly impossible to make an economic success supplying that market. That market is currently being filled with fossil fueled fired mechanization that is harvesting at unsustainable levels, particularly from a planetary perspective.

The point of those statements are to suggest that a “horselogger” not compete with machines in supplying commodity defined goods but work in a setting that pays for the quality of services not just the production of goods.

I would say there is a certain value to your interests and dreams about being a horselogger that would make just being involved on a part time basis worth doing. The culture of this skill base is becoming more valuable all the time and your dream is a worthy one.

I won’t write anymore at this point but would invite your continued investigation into this culture in any way possible.

There seems to be a disconnect between the ability to make a sustainable living and being acceptably low income or poor. Some have been poor all our lives and this is nothing new and of course some have been at this lifestyle and culture for longer and that certainly gives some advantage in land ownership or long term rental from the government.
In this sense 100% – everyone on this board is in the same stoneboat.

~

[dominiquer60]

Jason makes a great point. I am weaning myself off of a reasonably lucrative profession this year. While most people understand that I am moving on to realize my dream of living and working on a small diversified farm with a man that I would like to grow old with, some folks really don’t get it. Just this morning I was saying goodbye to someone and their reaction was, “why you can make so much money down here, it would be silly not to take this opportunity.” I had to explain to her that my goal from the beginning was to make money and that I have, but now I am ready to move on and make a living at a place that I have been looking for since I was a child.

When I started this job, my goal was to save money so that I could start a market garden which would hopefully include horse power. The best way to do this I decided, was to live like I was dirt poor while I was saving. Sure I bought a few things that I didn’t really need, and I did a little back roads traveling, but in the end I accepted that I was going to have a limited income for the rest of my life. I don’t have to invest in land after all and I will start with Ox power and have a fleet of tractors available at all times, that is just luck I guess. My vegetable mentor told me that vegetable farming is like having children, you can plan all you want but you will never be fully prepared for what is to come, just jump in an do it if that is what you truly want. Diving into poverty, well deeper poverty, has helped me learn skills that I have always wanted, but never thought that I would learn, I am happy that I made that decision and it has prepared me well for my future.

Good Luck with all of life’s adventures, follow your dreams and remember when you give up wealth as the IRS sees it, you gain in riches and freedom in other ways. I don’t care what the government thinks, but Carl and Jason are two of the richest men alive and I imagine so are many of the others here on DAP.

Erika

[Rick Alger]

Matthew,

I am a full-time commercial horselogger, and I share your frustration. It is now a struggle to make ends meet in a business I have been conducting for many years.

My advice is to review some of the discussions on this board about value adding and building return business. This is the direction I am trying to take. Extracting timber at commercial rates will no longer pay the bills.

More advice. Voluntary poverty is overrated. Start small with a single horse, a whiffle tree and a chain. Forget about arches, horse trailers and trucks, you can rent or borrow them when needed until you are making money.

Do good work. Build your client base first.

Best of luck,

Rick

[Gabe Ayers]

Here is a testimonial from a fellow in New Zealand – Jason Cruse

Seems awfully appropriate to this thread….just one guys experience…

Hey Jason hope you and your family are well.I have just finished my first contract with the department of conservation logging 200 tonne of western red cedar from regenerating native.This job went real well my last day i had an open day and let people including local media photographers come and watch had alot of positive feed back.Logging douglas fir at the present for another NZ DRAFTWOOD log home this one is for an eco sub division so should lead to further work.Start a contract next week 1500 tonne of chestnut this should keep me out of trouble for a while.Anyway mate I’m keeping busy and spreading the word while making a dollar LIVING THE DREAM.Thanks again

~

[Carl Russell]

dominiquer60;17226 wrote:

…..

Good Luck with all of life’s adventures, follow your dreams and remember when you give up wealth as the IRS sees it, you gain in riches and freedom in other ways. I don’t care what the government thinks, but Carl and Jason are two of the richest men alive and I imagine so are many of the others here on DAP.

Erika

Quote:

Rick Alger ….. Voluntary poverty is overrated. Start small with a single horse, a whiffle tree and a chain. Forget about arches, horse trailers and trucks, you can rent or borrow them when needed until you are making money.

Do good work. Build your client base first.

This thread speaks to the heart of the issue as far as I see it. Our culture has prepared us to live and work within a predetermined framework. This is not a bad thing, but in an attempt to become modern we have left behind certain attributes of bygone cultures, such as living within the confines of ones own environment, and taking responsibility for ones own needs.

Examples of this are having two new pairs of pants per year, living in a cold house because you built it with what you had and you heat it exclusively with wood cut by yourself, eating potatoes instead of white rice, sweating and covered with soil, manure, and pitch because you have to keep animals because you can’t afford machinery and you don’t have the cash flow to buy food on a regular basis, and staying away from the health care because you don’t have insurance and can’t afford that either.

Yes this is how I measure my wealth, and in fact it is so low that the IRS can’t even measure me. I started as Rick suggests with one horse, whiffle-tree, choker, and chainsaw, paid for with cash, and built from there. I did have a family pace that I could start from, but that has also meant that I have cared for my elderly mother for the last 15 years. We have also built a second house on the property, and have continued to invest what money we make, but the bottom line for me was to see my life as something that I could manage for myself.

This was not an example set for me in the educational institutions I attended. It was a remnant in the communities where I grew up. I saw men and women who worked all day without making a dime, but all the time adding to their bottom line. They definitely had other sources of income, but that money went a long way, and it was not the source of all they needed. People used to keep themselves healthy, and they were more accepting of what life dished out to them. I saw people living with extended family, sharing responsibilities, taking care of neighbors, and using their land like it was all they were ever going to have to meet their true needs.

I completely understand how life can get distracting, and how if you don’t grow up with land, or in a community that supports your dreams this description can seem like pie-in-the-sky, but the truth is comparing apples to oranges. Even the biggest farming and logging operations are faced with the reality that biological systems cannot sustain economy of scale. We just can’t expect to continue to live lives based on financial wealth.

At some point people as organisms depend on biological systems because they have an inherant production capability. We simply cannot use money to pay for that to happen, nor can we continue to expect that it can feed us and make us money. It is unfair that we live in a time when a lot of people don’t have access to situations where they can reasonably expect to begin to replace one type of existance with the other, but there are also a growing number of opportunities.

In the last year I have been contacted by over a dozen people who are actively searching for opportunities to make this change. Two of these people are willing to put their other life on hold, and are planning to come and live with us, to learn and to help. This is also a very hard thing to consider realistically, because parents, co-workers, spouses, and community members seriously question these motives. Years of investments in carreers, retirments, and homes are very hard to convert.

I am certainly not suggesting that anyone cash in the chips, buy a horse and build a teepee with 3 kids and a spouse. I am however, not alone in seeing a significant and looming limitation to our current highly consumptive and dependant lifestyle.

If there is any way that DAP can work to build a network among people who need, and those who have these skills and opportunities, then I will be very happy.

Carl

[jac]

Great discussion here. Lots of good points. Making the jump from oil and money dependancy in one go is nigh on impossible unless ther’s a bit of money in the pot to carry you through the “transition”.. Every situation is different though. Jason in NZ has landed an ideal situation, conservation is a “niche” market now.. that will change in the future and become the normal. Anyone using horses for real work are in the same situation and we should grab any chance to work with our horses and get paid into the bargain. My own way of doing it is to take small steps by gradually making/growing the things we need and thus reduce the amount of time/money I need to spend away from home. I agree its so easy to get caught up in the rat race.. You start off with a beater and fix it yourself.. you then work more hours at work and cant find the time to fix the car.. you buy a more reliable expensive car.. need to work more hours to make the payments.. and so it goes on..Taking small bites works for me.. drive a beater car, make my own equipment as much as I can,dont do the fancy holidays but have a stable of great horses that we are getting work for now at Robert Burns{scottish poet} cottage.. A niche market I know but the horses are making money and its the only way I can do it in our present situation..
John

[mitchmaine]

hey john, your model seems sound to me. any time i can make or do something around here that i’d have to pay out for is money i have made (even without it to show). folks like to point out that your time was worth money, but in the end i can’t hear their argument. i think they are unhappy in their own work, and hurt to see someone else happy in theirs. ironic since they are usually the ones with all the money. my dad always said god gave all the money to the rich, cause they couldn’t get by without it. a little harsh, but my dad didn’t have much money either.

[jac]

Yes I get the same comments Mitch. “It would be cheaper to buy” blah blah blah.. But they completly miss the point. Time spent with family making/growing is worth far more to me than spending time in a traffic jam to end up in a giant warehouse.. cant call them a shop.. to stand in line and see right through the marketing ploys that they use, not to mention quietly fume at the price they charge for milk !!! then spend even more time in another trafic jam on the way home !!!. Thanks but no thanks.. Sad to say even our farmer friends cant see the other way. Caught up in the high input/high output way of most modern agriculture.. On a lighter note my “make instead of buy” policy backfired one time.. Decided to make tomato ketchup. Long story short.. ran out of my own tomatos and had to buy some. ended up costing twice as much as regular ketchup.. so now there is a saying in our house “not worth buying it for 1.25.. John will make it for 3.75”.. you win some, you lose some:D

[Carl Russell]

mitchmaine;17275 wrote:

…. any time i can make or do something around here that i’d have to pay out for is money i have made (even without it to show). folks like to point out that your time was worth money, but in the end i can’t hear their argument…..

It’s worth more than money if you use it for yourself. I don’t see my time on the farm as an expense, rather I see it as an investment. I don’t lose it the way I do when I go work for someone else. Besides I am learning as I’m doing, which is an immediate return, and in some cases I get so much pride from seeing a job well done, that I immediately recoup the value plus profit.

Carl

[Marshall]

John I am sure your ketchup tasted better and was healthier. I feel the same about money and time with the family. I told my boss I am not fond of working saturdays. He asked “Is it a money thing?” and I said yes. To me the time spent with my family is worth more than the money I can make driving twenty miles each way to work for three hours. He just couldn’t understand that and three and a half years later I still drive in every other saturday. I can’t wait to grow produce full time and quit my day job. Thats enough ranting now.

[near horse]

Your time is one thing you truly own from the outset – no initial cost. And you get to decide how to use it. So kudos to those of you who can spend your time doing something that is your passion – that’s a good life to be living.

[Author]

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