whole corn

[mink]

anybody feed whole corn instead of a sweet feed to their horses…..if so how much is used with free choice ,all the hay they want

[Dickel]

I would love to hear this subject debated.

When I started having horses The vet told me to feed hay free choice and no higher than 10% protein sweet feed. I buy 12% protein sweet feed and mix 5 parts oats to 1 part sweet feed. The oats I buy at the feed mill has a lot of whole corn in it. That worries me about the higher protein content and bought a fanning mill to remove the shelled corn. My horses are over weight and I have been cutting down on the grain somewhat to see if they are dropping some of the fat.

[jen judkins]

Draft horses should not need any grain unless they are in substantial work. I feed mine some alfalfa/timothy pellets only as a vehicle for some supplements, but no grain. No excuse for an overweight horse. Cut out the grain, add some free choice minerals and all the hay they want to eat. If they get fat on hay or seem to have an endless appetite, then its a mineral issue. Horse in regular work will need some grain for energy, but you would be surprised at how little is necessary. I would love to hear from Carl or Brad Johnson or some of the other full time loggers, what they feed their working teams.

[Carl Russell]

The old timers preferred whole corn, as it was reportedly good for breaking off sharp points on teeth.

They also said, “oats will get you in the ditch, and corn will get you out.”

Feeding corn will not increase your protein as much as it will increase fat.

I agree that horse should not need grain unless being worked. It was convention that all horses were worked, so many folks refer to the need to feed horses grain as a regular ration.

I feed an Organic Select Grains, which is basically oats, soybeans, and cracked corn, 10% protein. I ad a 50# bag of cracked corn to 2 bags of the select grain.

I only feed grain intermittently when they aren’t working, for ice cream. When I am working them I usually feed about 10-15 pounds per day, for energy.

The real reason that grain is important for the working horse is to keep their bellies from being too full during work. A horse fed on grass, or hay, will work just fine, but for heavy work, a full belly can be detrimental. Feeding more grain and less hay before and during work, and then more hay and less grain after work is the practice I follow. 2/5 (Daily ration) grain & 1/4 (DR) hay @ AM, 2/5 (DR) grain & 1/4 (DR) hay @ noon, 1/5 (DR) grain & 1/2 (DR) hay @ PM.

I find horses fed a lot of grain have a lot of energy, sometimes not constructive energy. It takes a good hand to get much work done with horses ramped up on oats and corn (or sweet feed), although if you really want to move some freight, feeding grain will be advantageous. I just play with the ration, and watch them at work, and adjust as I go…….. like tuning the carburetor on a saw:cool:.

Carl

[fogish]

Another problem with whole, crushed and ground corn is that 28.9%, 29.9% and 45.6% of the starch is digested in the small intestine respectively. This is at a rate of g/kg body weight/meal, 2.0:1.0 morning:evening. “Starch not digested in the small intestine is readily digested by the microbial digestion in the hindgut. Large amounts of starch bypassing the small intestine is thought to increase digestive upset because of adverse changes in the microbial population and dysfunction in the hindgut.” – Nutrient Requirements of Horse, 6th Edition, NRC. The hindgut is where grass is fermented and digested so disrupting that effects how well your horse digests it’s main food source. Feeding both a limited amount of high starch feed with hay or pasture limits this effect. Oats in any form have a much higher small intestine digestibility and are a better feed.

Plus: “Starch that is not digested in the small intestine enters the large intestine, where it will be fermented. When starch is fermented, its net energy value is lower than when it is absorbed as glucose.” NRC. If you want I can dig in here and get some of the information on protein and carbohydrates, from what I understand for a serious working horse, just like a human, carbohydrates and fats are extremely important.

My information is coming from books and not working experience. When it’s breeding season I have to supplement my stallion with sweet feed and just started adding oil as well. I can’t keep weight on him, he just won’t stop moving. The rest of the year he is on the same diet as all of the other horses, hay supplemented with alfalfa.

[Mark Cowdrey]

Carl,
What is your DR of hay, +/-?
Also,
I have heard that whole corn is the only way to make sure that you get the “point” (?) of the kernel that has most of the oil. I expect if one is feeding organic that you might reasonably expect not to be shorted on the constituent parts of the grain.
I feed what grain I do by volume rather than weight as it is something I can see. I have no real idea what 10-15 lbs of grain looks like.
After several years of not rally be satisfied with the condition of my horses, a little to much hip & rib, last winter I started adding a coffee can of whole corn and 1/2 coffee can of black oil sunflower seeds to the coffee can of beet pulp (dry measure) I feed daily. I am much happier with their condition (feel but not see ribs and some decent roundness to the butt) and their dispositions/attitudes are not noticeably (to me) changed. One of my horses was quite dry and itchy and is less so now. Perhaps more or different minerals would have taken care of it. I put the corn and sunflower seed to soak w the beet pulp and don’t see much in the manure. I use mineral salt and not as much as I should.
I just did my figures for last year and for 3 horses spent about $400 on grain (conventional). At $5/bale that’s about a bale & a half a week which I don’t think would have made much difference on condition. I do not feed free choice hay and, frankly, cannot imagine making or buying that much hay as I am sure they would go through it. When they are on all hay I would guess they get about 1 35# bale a day, though I don’t keep track rigorously. I split it up at 7:30AM, noon, 5-6 and 10ish. I water at 9-10AM and 5-6 PM.
I am not recommending the above, it is just more or less what I do now. I work my horses intermittently.
Thanks,
Mark

[Dickel]

Four of my horses are out on pasture and I feed 1/2 cup by measure morning and night. Last month I had the Vet out to give all nine shots and check them out and discuss their diet. I didn’t ask him about the Corn part. The reason I would want to continue to feed a little grain is so I can look them over and handle them. I have a problem walking and can not chase them down to check them up close. One mare that foal this last September is getting 3 cups of the mix. She is maintaining her overall condition and the foal is eating some portion of that amount. The Vet will be back out to geld two stallions later this winter. I will ask him about the advise I read here. Always learning from others ways of caring for horses.

[Carl Russell]

I feed a bale a day to each horse…… approx 35-40 pounds……. religiously…… sometimes in deep cold I throw them an extra bale…1/2 each. Of course I am working them fairly regularly and feed grain to support that, so they do get more energy in their diet than just my rationed allowance of hay. ($$$$…. tight-wad that I am:eek:)

I use a quart can ( tomato juice) that hold about 2# and feed 4# in AM, 4# at noon, and 2# at night.

Truthfully, I often work days at home that don’t start that early, but extend into afternoon-early evening witout stopping at noon, so I may just feed grain in AM, and then again at PM. That also means I may play with the hay ration too, giviing them a bit more early, but working through the mddle of the day with less in their bellies.

There is a factor to the energy available in the grain. Oats are more like the pasta the night before the big run, more available for direct use during exertion. Corn is more likely to be for condition, the overall energy due to fitness. Thus the oats into the ditch, the corn out.

Like Fogish suggests feeding grain after the animals have eaten some hay will help in digestion by slowing down the movement of grain through the gut, and disperses it within the ration of hay.

The convention to use grain to maintain body condition is also related to the fact that working animals on grass tend to have much faster digestion, and need to be fed more to keep them comfortable during work. Feeding hay slows down the digestion, but also reduces available energy. So feeding concentrates helps to replace body condition lost due to exertion, but also makes up for the less energetic feed.

Horses can be fed enough high quality hay to keep them in good condition. Traditionally that hay was fed to dairy and meat animals, but that was also in part because horses were being fed grain already to supplement their hay, so horse hay has always been more of a filler than quality feed.

Horses that are cultivating, or other light or moderate work can work pretty well with a belly full of hay. Horses that are being driven long distances at a moderate rate of speed, or horses that are being required to exert a high degree of effort, do so much better with less in their belly….. think about moving wood in a wheelbarrow after Thanksgiving dinner……or running a marathon after eating a huge breakfast….

Using grain as a staple feed is unnecessary, and can be dangerous to the animal’s healthy. Using the way you feed your horse to reflect the way you work your horse and what you expect out of him/her is part of the art of husbandry.

All of this is to say that feeding whole corn vs. cracked or crimped probably has miniscule effect. I used to be able to get steamed flaked corn, which is the whole kernel heated and smooshed. It was suggested to me as much more digestible…….

Carl

[Does’ Leap]

We feed no grain to our animals. I am not a commercial logger, but I have my horses out 4 days a week logging in the winter with consistent farm work (manure spreading, haying, etc) the rest of the year. My wife took an on-line course on horse nutrition based on the NRC guidelines. Every year we test our hay and she balances the ration accordingly. She has been able to balance the ration on hay alone under the guideline of “moderate” work (other guidelines are maintenance, light work, and heavy work) using hay alone. We have to supplement with second cut hay to meet protein requirements and feed a little less than a pound / horse of soaked beet pulp as a vehicle for feeding a custom mineral mix (beet pulp is also a good source of fermentable fiber).

I mostly log alone and am only pulling 6 to 700 feet on average day, sometimes more if things are going smoothly. If I had someone cutting ahead of me, we would likely bump up to the guideline of “heavy” work. We do have periods of heavy work when we are spreading manure and haying, but they are intermittent and followed by periods of lighter work. Our horses are in excellent condition and have plenty of “go”.

George

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