Workers Comp

[Rick Alger]

Many of us could use an employee or an apprentice, but we cannot afford the expense of Workers Comp insurance. There are ways to get around this, but not without potentially serious problems down the road. My hope is that through this group we can find a way to cover employees/apprentices without skirting the laws.

Right now most states lump horse loggers into the same risk category as cable skidder operations. There are apparently not enough horse loggers in any state/province/country I have heard of to amount to a separate category.

Are there enough of us willing to pool together and stick together in some form to create a new insurance rating/audit category?

Let’s hear your thoughts.

[Scott G]

Thanks for getting this started, Rick.

Most WC laws are State governed and vary by State. How would we address that?

I use to use Pinnacol Insurance here in Colorado as they were the default WC carrier. It wasn’t specific to horselogging as that was when I was running a mechanical show.

I did use sub fellers. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met but it can be done. Don’t pay them hourly pay them by volume, they must carry their own liability insurance, and the carrier has a form they fill out stating that they are an independent contractor.

In short they truly do have to be running a business which is an easy thing to do, especially if you are a sole proprietor.

The big question comes up as to how do we deal with interns and apprentices? Maybe Jason and Tim C. could way in on that since they deal with a steady stream of them.

Thanks again for getting this topic out there.

One more question, do we want to leave these topic forums in here or put them on the public site?

[Gabe Ayers]

Well, this is something of a big question. Frankly I have no answers. I would suppose this discussion is within the closed group?

Jason

[Rick Alger]

Jason, I believe this is a closed discussion.

Scott, I agree that most WC laws are state governed and vary. It will be a challenge.

However at least 35 states use the classification system developed by a single company called NCCI. This company also calculates most states exposure rates. There might be some flexibility here.

Someone I spoke to from the NH Insurance Commission said he would look into the issue of pooling across state lines and get back to me.

I’ll be gone off-grid for a week to ten days starting tomorrow. I will report as soon as I get back.

[Gabe Ayers]

First I have to say I don’t believe in insurance. It is betting against your own safe operation, if that makes any sense. Most people never need or use it and pay for the few that do.

It adds to the cost of operation to the point of keeping it more likely to not make a living at the work at all, particularly if you are working in a marginal situation from the onset, marginal meaning cheap wood. All the security net trappings of modern society seem to be geared to making other people money and me poorer. It is a deterrent to true sustainability.

The Amish don’t have it and I don’t want it either unless mandated by law to operate.

Those are just my personal opinions but also the way I have operated personally for 45 years now.

It is my understanding that in Va., if you don’t have three employee’s you are not required to have WC. This is why we would have people work with us on a pro rated basis, bring their own tools, drive their own vehicles, set their own hours and be sub contractors responsible for their own safety. We also issue and have them sign a 1099 form before starting.

The students all sign a wavier or two waviers from the start. It probably doesn’t protect me if I’m negligent and that wouldn’t be any different if I had insurance.

So I have no answers, we operate by the seat of our pants and that is because we simply can’t afford any more. We use a hold harmless clause in our harvesting agreement to protect the landowner and we go to work.

Now all that said, I want you to know that we are safety eccentrics… we are about safety first, safe side, safe operating rules…safe as we can make it.

Like the one of if the wind is blowing more than 20 miles per hour we don’t work in the woods, period….that would have saved a few breathless moments for LanceK according to his other post about working in the swamp.

We only get about 185 days a year in the woods, other days we are doing other things, like sawing, stacking, unstacking, planing, hauling lumber, firewood and other things besides being in the woods during falling weather or high winds.

Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

We do have a little system where we have self insured somewhat. We put a portion of a penny a foot for the DRAFTWOOD sales into a fund that we use to help anyone in bad shape, but fortunately we haven’t had many and knocking on wood, none from while working in the woods.

We are not large enough to do that well through the DRAFTWOOD program yet.

Self insurance is probably the best solution for anyone if we could figure out the right system. I’ve read that if you put the normal insurance premium money into a bank account and the bank didn’t fail, you’d have more money than you need to retire at 62, with normal health issues along the way.

[lancek]

I agree with Jason, I have never carried insurance other than health insurance to operate I did when I had a tree service and that was only way to get liability insurance was to take out a wc I to use a 1099 and require the worker to supply his own tools and do not regulate his hours and I pay piece rate so they is no confusion as to the employ and employer relationship! In most states this is exceptibal but you would have to check your local regulations!
I to try to follow all the safety rules but sometimes things happen just like the other day it started out quite calm but this storm blew up on us unexpected we had no warning it was like we seen the clouds on the horizon but they came down on us like a ton of bricks! And as I have posted before as the organization grows maybe we can look into some sort of self insurance but I feel that may be quite a few years down the road Lancek

[TaylorJohnson]

Wavers are the only answer I think and every state is going to be different and most would not hold up in court. Scott we ran ares like you did when we were mechanized . Every cutter was a sub and all carried the own WC . We would have as hight as 25 cutters sometimes and all set there own hours and have there own stuff. The big problem here now is finding guys that will commit that hard to the job of cutting wood . They don’t want to buy the comp because it is to much money and I don’t blame them . They way I see it is they are regulating the profit out of logging on a small scale. There are a lot of mills here that wont buy your wood if you don’t have the proof of insurance and you training done and up to date ( state mandated training ) . It is a joke for sure. A wile back I cut my arm down to the bone , tendons , arteries the hole works was laid up for about eight months and do you know what WC paid me ,,,,,, you guessed it ZERO!!!! . I have paid this stuff for many years and it would not pay me a cent. Don’t get me wrong I did not expect them to see I just carry the dummy policy . This policy is about $900.00 a year and after every audit witch happens every year you get some back ( what a deal hey ) the only way it will pay is if you pay in ,,,, well last I heard it was about 33% on every dollar. It is impossible to do this in the woods and make any thing most of the time. They answer is wavers , why cant we enter contact with one another and have it be legal ? Answer is crooked politicians and insurance companies with deep pockets.
Up here it is tough to meet the requirements to me self employed ( by there standards ) so you have to be care full because just because someone has the own tools, sets there own hours , works what ever days they want does not make them self employed in court that is . Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

The courts and insurance company’s can not regulate you into having insurance and wavers are a good idea but not a fail safe! The only way to protect your assets and this is going to sound very bad but is what most company’s do and that is to hide all your assets! You either have to pay the insurance guys or the lawyers and as far as the big saw mills are concerned a well placed law suit can solve a lot of problems there. See you go after them in court and make a big media problem for them IE large company trying to stiffel small guy and dont say it cant be done I have done it with GP !
And that is why I still say we need some kind of lobbying branch to see if we can get some of these things changed Lancek

[Jim Ostergard]

Here in Maine we apply for an exemption as an independent contractor from the workers comp system from the workers comp board. When that is issued and given a copy of to the landowner with the contract the landowner is then freed from liability is one is hurt on the job. If another person is going to work with me they have to have the same independent status and in theory need to be doing a separate process, say one felling, one twitching and also have a separate contract with the landowner.
There is still liability insurance I carry which is between $550 and $700 a year. Only used it once when I took down a set of power lines and could have paid for that out of pocket. The Maine Master Logger certification requires it as part of their process but I’m thinking about getting out of that ’cause its run by the big guys now and I have seen some work that is really awful and they keep their certification. So much for the rainforest alliance and all that stuff. Sure make for some cushy jobs for a few folks who have never cut a stick of wood.
With all the good discussion in the last few days by this group I again try and think about what would happen if all the rest of the world could chip in. Again who is a logger and who is not. Don’t want to get Bumpus-ed to death every time I want to share.
Blowing about 30-35 NW and cooling off. Hard crust on the snow, no day to chop so I’m baking bread.
Jimbojim

[TaylorJohnson]

“And that is why I still say we need some kind of lobbying branch to see if we can get some of these things changed Lancek”

I think that this is a big part of the answer for sure. Hunters to it , gun owners and every body else so why not small scale loggers.
That system in Main does sound better than ares is for sure. Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

Well that is also why I think we should set up regional or state wide groups so that we can start going after some of these things. I am sure most of this kind of work will have to be on a state by state basis I also think that since we are in our infancy we may be able to work with some of the environmental groups that may have more clout at the state house! and no I am not going tree hugger!!!!! 🙂

[TaylorJohnson]

Tim ,
Another rout I thought we could go would be teaming up with other nich type businesses that have similar struggles as we do . I am not sure what that would be but I am sure there are some out there that would like to hire a person to help a bit but can not because they are in the same boat as us as far as insurance goes. May be Black Smiths, Farriers, Gun Smiths ,…. I don’t really know but some of these types of things might be a place for us to fined allies in this.
I am in a bear hunters association and we help all kinds of hunters not just bear hunters . May be we could harness the power of horse trainers , ( some pun intended LOL. ) , Wood carvers ,…. like I said I don’t know for sure . Some of these things might sound odd but I can bet you a lot of them might think were odd for doing what we do,,, heck I know I am. I know there are other types of businesses with the same road blocks that we have we should find some of them and pair up with them as small nich market contractors and help one another out.
The best part about being small is they might give us some breaks or be more flexible because at this point we don’t matter as much.
It does not take as many people as some would think to move some of these politicians. A local news paper and a few craftsmen with there story might be a big push for what we want.
I have my reps on speed dial , we all should and we should all let them hear us and what we want. Taylor Johnson

[lancek]

I agree 100 % and that is what I am getting at go to the organizations that are ready established and see if they can cooperate with our fledgling group !

[Rick Alger]

I heard back from the Workers Comp guy. He said he discussed the issue of lower rates for animal powered loggers within his NH office and also by conference call with NCCI ( the company that administers Workers Comp in most states)

They were not opposed to establishing a separate rating class for animal powered loggers.

To do that they need data on actual cases of animal powered logger’s claims for lost wages and medical expenses.

Any suggestions on how to collect verifiable data?

[Rick Alger]

I heard back from the Workers Comp guy. He said he discussed the issue of lower rates for animal powered loggers within his NH office and also by conference call with NCCI ( the company that administers Workers Comp in most states)

They were not opposed to establishing a separate rating class for animal powered loggers.

To do that they need data on actual cases of animal powered logger’s claims for lost wages and medical expenses.

Any suggestions on how to collect verifiable data?

[Author]

Posts