Working donkeys

[Robert MoonShadow]

Well, I started this thread to kind of have an ongoing post of what happens when an unskilled newbie [um, that’d be me] tries to train & work some donkeys on my little farm. I’ve got a mother/daughter pair of large standards here, and a jack that’s a lg standard down in Texas.
Kinsey is 50″, 765 lbs. (vet says about 100# overweight), gray-dun and 17 y.o., trained for everything – parades, harrowing pastures, riding, wagons/carts; been just a pasture ornament for 6 years. Mother of Jenny-Mae, whi is 9 y.o., 52″, 650 lbs, spotted (tri-colored) and only trained for riding; pasture ornament for 6 years – never seen a harness…until this weekend.
Kinsey took to the harness just fine, except that if I make her ‘back’, she then won’t start forward again. I wonder if it’s to do with the blinders, since if I hang the lines on her, step up beside her & say ‘walk on’, she does every fine again…and I tried attaching the lines to just a halter, and she doesn’t have this problem. I don’t know enough to figure it out, yet.
Jenny-Mae = Hung the harness (it’s for a Belgian mule, so way too big for them both, but it’s all I’ve got on hand, for now)…she never even flinched, when I led her around with it on her. However, I’ve had quite the resistance to taking the bit at all. In fact, I took 20 minutes just to get her to take the bit without getting the bridle all the way on. She did keep the bit in, but wouldn’t let me put the bridle all the way on; so I got her to keep the bit in for about 3 minutes & considered it a success – I like to end on any positive note {got that idea from reading DAP threads! ;)}
Not sure what to do about this bridling thing, as yet…or Kinsey’s weird little thing about not going forward after backing. (Unless I “touch her with an angel” – my friend Kristi’s phrase for a tap w/ the driving whip. :rolleyes:)
It’s really funny to watch Jenny-Mae as she peers through the corral side to watch her momma practice – I’m totally convinced that she’s learning as she does, since she doesn’t have near the problem of learning to accept most things, if she sees her momma do it first. Makes me very glad that Kinsey’s trained – at least ONE of us knows how it’s supposed to happen! I do want to give proper credit to Kinsey’s trainer: Janelle is the owner/breeder of large-standard & mammoth donkeys in eastern Montana – Rocky Mountain Songbirds Ranch. Any success I have will be primarily due to her excellent training of Kinsey before she was sold 9 years ago, to the gal I bought her from. And also Kristi Kingma (http://www.teamdonk.org), who is my mentor in driving to wagon & cart. She’s now got 4 donks, and I’ll be learning to drive 4-up & 3-abreast (after SHE learns to!). In exchange, she & TeamDonk {Gallahad, Merlin, King Arthur (aka Jester) & Lippy-Luvver Luc} get to learn how to do actual farm work w/ my plow & cultivator.
Anyone have any suggestions on these two problems or any comments – I’d love to have your input!

[near horse]

Hey Robert,

Glad to see you’re still kicking! It sounds like you’ve come a long way from when we visited last year. Hooves on the ground and gettin’ after it!

As you know, I’m a rook too but here’s my 2 cents.
Bridling – it’s not an ear thing is it? The mule folks up here (and most places I think) say that mules REALLY don’t like stuff going over their ears – I never saw how they put on a bridle but that was like their RULE #1

I haven’t tried it yet but a few teamsters (I think “grey” may have mentioned this) have said that if your animal tends to want to back instead of stand – use a stick and put it against their rear end so when they step back they get a little prod – not a big poke etc, just a resistance reminder to stay put.

I would think your 9 yr old should be used to a bit if she was broke to ride. Can try the molasses coating trick and let her hold it in her mouth an “enjoy”. Or try snapping the bit onto your halter and let her get used to your bit in her mouth w/o worrying about the bridle yet.

Just my thoughts. Keep in touch – maybe I can run down and visit you again soon- I’ll buy the lunch!

[Rod]

Hi Robert

I think your observation on the blinders may be on the mark. I have been thinking along the same lines for our donkeys. I don’t think they need them as they are a lot less likely top be startled or bolt by something happening behind them and usually they stop to think it over if they see something out of the ordinary.

We have “be kind to long ears bridles” for our donkeys. These have a buckle in the strap that goes behind the ears so that their is no need to pull or disturb those large, stately and sensitive ears pulling a bridle over them.

[LStone]

Robert,
I had a similar problem with my filly going forward when I started her in harness. It was suggested to me by a friend to use a helper with a lead-rope up front. Harness and drive as usual but have a lead-rope on the halter and the helper to kind of encourage her to a start on your queue to go forward. Be careful that your help knows that they are there to assist only as a fall back if your “step up” command is ignored and that you are in control / driving. The helper should get progressively less assertive as time goes by, and the animal gets more responsive to you. Figure it is just one way, I did it and it seemed to work ok.

Larry

[Robert MoonShadow]

Larry – Good advice about the helper; but, alas, no one on this side of the mountain to assist. W/ Kinsey, she steps out alright, ‘cept once I have her back, then ‘whoa’, she just doesn’t start again unless she’s “touched by an angel”. W/ Jenny-Mae, I’m not sure what it is: I struggled w/ her again today, paying attention to just when she starts to say “no way” = she lets the halter over, and the bridle is the type that buckles over the back (like a halter), but she just won’t take the bit without a lot of persuasion. Got her to take the bit & spit it right out (a little bit longer in, each time) but never got the bridle all the way on…when she finally kept it in for almost 30 seconds, I could see her fixing to spit it out & told her to (hoping to set it in her mind that it was MY idea) and praised her really well. I noticed she ducks her head real low when fighting it, so after I put it up, we worked on “gimme-yer-head” w/ just the halter on –> raising her head & turning it to me got a carrot piece & lovin’s – she started to like that, so I’m going to work it from there. As a contrast, I can completely harness/bridle/etc. her momma (Kinsey) w/out her being tied – even in the middle of the 26-acre pasture!

Hey Geoff! Glad you survived the unusually-mild Idaho “winter”! We’ll get together sometime this Spring, ayuh? If I get this land deal, perhaps we can make a weekend of firewood-logging/pasture plowing? (that is, once I get the harness in & get these girls to co-operate!

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Sounds like a nice idea – donkeys are my next bet if the government end up killing my ox (there’s a lot of government culling going on and you never know who’s next). It’d break my heart and I don’t think I could start new cattle all over again 🙁 I’ve worked with donkeys and found them to be that bit smarter than horses, more akin to the oxen.

Can I ask though, do they *need* a bit? I work my oxen without and there’s people out there who have bitless horses…..

[Rod]

Hi Ixy

I had the same thought about the bit recently. It seems when ever we use the donkeys riding or driving that the otherwise (semi) cooperative boys are fighting the bit. Maybe they consider it an insult and degrading, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I don’t think the bit is needed to provide runaway control with these guys who never run away but do the opposite stopping all the time. They might need a bit on the other end to get them going.

[jac]

Hi Ixy. I appologise for posting this in the working donkey area but I read all the posts,, anyway… my “jogging ” gelding rides out beautifully in a bitless bridle !! The bitless bridle idea realy appeals to me but am not sure how it would work in a team situation?? how would it work with cross checks? can you get them with blinkers ? any info anyone has would be greatly appreciated..
John

[Robert MoonShadow]

Ixy/Rod/Jac –>
I’ve thought about that, myself (no bit), but never really got a difinitive answer on driving (as opposed to riding) with bitless bridle, when I asked before, on this site. As an experiment, I’m going to harness them each up (seperately) and try attaching the lines to the halter, and will post the results. Hopefully the more experienced members here will post and let me know if I’m heading for disaster (BEFORE I reach it!). I’m very inexperienced in driving, still, but between the donkeys’ innate sensibility to handling stressful situations & the fact that I’ve observed others at work, pulling contests & driving horses/mules/oxen/donkeys that it sure seems to me that it’s their voice & relationship with the animal what actually provides the control – not the bit. Because it seems to me that if a 1800 lb. critter decided to take off, it’d take one hell of a strong set of arms to pull that head around to a stop.
At least, that’s what it seems to be, from what I’ve seen.
After all, am I wrong here, or isn’t the bit supposed to be a tool of comunication, and not really for control? I guess what I’m trying to express is my idea that true control comes from our mind & the relationship we’ve built with that animal(s) – as reference, that’s what I get from reading Carl, Jason and others, here.
So, my question would be; is the bit a true safety factor, or more based on habit (it’s always been used)?

[jac]

Hi Robert… Try a search for “the Bitless Bridle by Dr Robert Cook”.. Came up as facebook but looks to be tons of info on there and a chat forum too so mabey you can post a question.. if I get more time I may do the same.. Best of luck and I look forward to hearing how you get on..
John

[Donn Hewes]

Robert, Here is my two cents. Communication, safety, control; what’s the difference. Don’t try to over think this. Can a horse, mule or donkey be worked without a bit? Most definitely, lots of examples from history, ( think horse logging for one, circus animals for another!). For every one of those examples there are horse loggers probably in almost every state, Amish farmer’s by the thousands, plus all the rest of us, connected in in a continuous line to dray horses, farm horses, and fire horses ALL working with bits for more than a hundred years.

The beauty of a bit in my opinion is that it really isn’t limiting in terms of how you choose to communicate with your animals. After investing some time in learning and training the bit is a subtle, quite, low stress way of communicating with draft animals. It also provides some safety and control in unforeseen circumstances.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Donn – Your “two-cents” worth is like most people’s ten dollars worth = as usual, you give useful things to think on…
🙂

I’m trying to evaluate whether I’m bypassing the bridle thing because I want to end up w/out blinders, anyways (saving an unneccesary step) or just trying to take the “easy” way out, by avoiding the ongoing confrontation w/ Jenny-Mae over the bit. I guess I’ll just absorb whatever advice I get here & experiment with both directions, and see what she’s got to “say” about it all, too.

[Donn Hewes]

I think biting a donkey that is not used to it could be challenging. How is she about the head in general? The ears? Ideally she would be willing to let you scratch her jaw or her face or where ever. Sometimes the ears take a while.

Putting a bit in the mouth is an example of one of those things that I do a certain way. That is to say, I can do it slowly, and I can give an animal a lot of time to figure out what I am doing, but ultimately I will put a bit in their mouth. Ideally I want to put the bit on an unrestrained animal, but that might take a lot of work to convince them to stand while we go through all this. I start by standing at the left side of the head, with my right fore arm between the ears holding the bridle from the top. The bridle is in front of their face. Now my left hand is under the bit offering it to the teeth. The hand between the ears reinforces the idea that they can’t back out or pull away. If (or when) the teeth don’t open the left thumb immediately slips into the mouth behind the front teeth which causes them to open their mouth. Because the right hand is holding the bridle by the top it slides right in and doesn’t get spit out as long as the right hand holds it up. With the bit in the mouth I switch hands so the left is holding the bridle up while the right puts the ears in.

I know the this is a long description for something basic, but for an animal that is going to fight a little, the best thing is to have a good technique that will allow you to put it on with the least amount of difficulty. Then they can begin to get accustomed to it and it will get a little easier each time. With a donkey this all assumes they are already willing to be touched, haltered, etc!

[Donn Hewes]

here is a picture. While Connie was generous to lower her head, the hand placement above and below is what allows me, (and convinces them) to take a bit and bridle. The rope halter is around her neck, a loose reminder that she is constrained.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Putting the bit on the halter seems to work much better for getting her to take the bit…I’m pretty sure it’s the “over-the-ears” thing and perhaps the blinders on the pony driving bridle. Actually, with these lg-standard donks, it’s more about getting them to lift their head up high enough to put it on, rather than lowering it – BTW: your horse sure looks good!
Took the last two days to work on “trailer-less trailer training”…starting with a sheet of plywood on the ground. Kinsey will load right up in a real trailer, but balked on this for about an hour. Jenny-Mae figured to leap over the plywood to get to me & the apple bit! Jenny-Mae takes an hour or better to load in a real trailer. Kinsey still hasn’t figured out how to go forward after being backed, but I can see her trying to figure it out. They’re not at all afraid of poles, chains, the plow or cultivator…:)

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