[Gabe Ayers]

Donn Hewes from Ridgewind Farm! (Jason’s computer) It is like spring down here. Don’t tell Maryrose but I think I will be home about May. My mother told me when I was still little – no fighting online. I agree with everyone. Horses and mules are incredibly adaptable to what we ask of them. Working with out blinders is interesting if you think it is interesting. As far as the horse is concerned blinders on or off both prove the same thing – these guys can take anything we throw at them.

I agree with Carl ( correct me if I am wrong ) that when we seek to understand a horse or mules reaction or response to a situation or stimulus (baring the obvious pain, injury or illness ) we need to look at the foundations of our relationship. While I have changed lots of bits and bridles over the years, they can be a distraction from the the basic point. What did I contribute or not at the moment, or before hand, That would have enabled that horse to reach its’ full potential to adapt to challenging situations that we know it can.

I hope you are all well, and I will report on how we drop tree down her once I am safely back in NY! Mulemandonn

[Gabe Ayers]

We still have a couple of fellows that make log trains and skid off very steeps slopes. As they say down here “steep as a cows face”.

A j grab is just a regular grab with the smaller spud ground off the chain end so if the pull is in any direction other that straight in line with the grab it will come out.

So a j hole is a system where if the logs in the log train of several logs hooked together with trail grabs and pulled by a single animal off an incredibly steep face and the logs run or start sliding off the mountainside on there own and the animal feels the resistance stop or the logs hitting their heels they simple step to the side in a clearing made by the logger (j hole) and pull the j grab at an angle and it pops out and the logs slide right on by them.

I did see a gray horse set down (assisted by sliding logs) on the head log once and ride it to the bottom but I have never actually seen a j hole horse. I have only heard stories about them, usually told by similar folks that tell the ones about grandpas horses or mules coming back in the woods and skidding out to the sawmill on their own. I don’t think these are “wood myths” but do suspect their is much culture involved that doesn’t get conveyed in the story telling that seems to emphasize the exciting parts and leave out the years of experience and skill of the practitioners. Maybe these story tellers are kin to the producers of extreme logging shows?

Chad Miano is the only guy we have that still consistently makes log trains. He has worked in setting were he made log flumes out of round lumber and sent them off benches on step ground that way. Slow work, dangerous and not what most of us want to do or him either, it just sometimes is where he has to work and where the wood is growing.

The older I get the more I like the gentler sloping land.

[Gabe Ayers]

Taylor,

The ones David Miller was making at Forest manufacturing were the plasma cut ones I mentioned in my post. I have a couple hanging in the barn now that are beat to pieces and basically crumbled after some regular use. We reported this experience to David as he was kind enough to donate some of his grabs to us a few years back and I am not sure if he still is doing this after we reported our results.

I haven’t gone to NH and probably won’t, but plan to tell the other fellows about them this week when they deliver some walnut logs we have had on order for a couple of weeks.

George,

When we fell our timber we always lay out a Loggers Helper, which is a piece of round wood laid where the tree will be fell or under the log while it is still off the ground so when we buck the log to a graded length it is still off the ground enough to slip the choker under without excavating most of the time. We also roll the log onto the choker when it is flat to the ground and we can manage to roll it with the peavy or cant hook we carry on the arch. That little detail when felling saves much work and frustration. Digging under a log in frozen ground is hard, that’s an obvious statement I guess. One always seems to find a limb, root or rock in the way and it can be a hassle even with a needle on the end as Scott describes. I even cut my hand once pushing a chain under when I hit a broadhead bowhunters arrow, years ago, as hard as that is to believe. In the summer when we are ahead with our felling and logs have lain overnight, I look under the logs before poking around just to make sure none or our native pit vipers have harbored there in a hunting pose.

So the point is this work is not easy even with all the stuff we come up with to make it easier. It also is more dangerous than can be imagined and one will find that out as the work goes on over a long period of time. So just keep working at it with whatever system works for you.

We have often wanted to include a segment in our videos about the various methods of attaching the log to the arch, sounds like that would be good information to share.

We try to never drive a grab into a potential veneer log, the buyers are definitely against that idea, give the cost of hitting a piece of metal would produce when slicing. I am not sure, but most modern saw mills have a metal detector just in front of the
debarker, so it would probably catch any metal before it got to the head rig. Oh by the way that potential veneer log is about one in every 2-300… not many, so don’t let anyone try to impress you with what top logs are bringing boys, because we just don’t have that many top logs, especially when practicing improvement restorative style selection harvesting . Always figure your income based on average per m. That is what a truckload is…averaged, despite being bought as individuals.

Sometimes I get silly questions like:

What kind of timber to you like to cut?

Answer: Veneer on the roadside….

doesn’t exist, not such thing, the forest is a mixed condition of dominant plants and species and in fact most veneer log candidates as standing timber are also the most productive trees still growing and making money for the landowner and the logger, so if you have any hope for the future, let them grow.

Good thread guys.

Salute,

[Gabe Ayers]

The closest Northern Hydraulic is about 39 miles from us and the last time I went in the place it was like a china store. I am not sure if anyone else has this experience, but most of the stuff is junk, or lower quality than what most us old timers are used to. One of our guys recently bought a NH sheave, snatch block or pulley whatever you call them locally and straightened the hook out on the first load….sad that quality tools are harder to find these days.

I’ll tell the younger fellows about it and they can make their choice. I have more than I will ever use and hang on to them for some silly reason.

Once on a job a few years ago we were working a main skill trail that was obviously a previous trail – as we always look for old patterns of disturbance when we lay out an area for harvesting. It just makes sense that if it has been done before, why not use the same route. If it is not eroded and seems to fit the contour and topography it is good enough to use it again. The previous harvesters that were animal powered were very attuned to the land and how to work in all conditions and most of the time did a great job and we copy them often.

As always we rest our horses on the way to the landing with a good load and that is some of the best meditation time ever. Just watching their breathing or respiratory rate, looking for them to take that big sigh and be ready to go again. This when we scope out the trees checking for NTMP’s and look at the understory, the soil and rocks and environment. A common check is to look down between your legs through the expanded metal on the arch deck to the front of the log to be sure we are getting good suspension and are not pushing a bunch of duff or leaves, dirt or stuff in front of the log. Just to make sure the impact is minimum. While doing this routine check on this particular skid trail I noticed a unusually smooth curved looking root exposed from the previous skids and got down to look closer and discovered a set of grabs buried in the ground right in front of the blackened remains of an old stump. I dug them out and they were trail grabs that I am sure some previous logger looked for and didn’t find. I still have them hanging in the barn. They appeared to be store bought because they had a manufacture swivel between them and we all clean links of chain of big diameter. They hadn’t been beat on to much and still seem quite serviceable.

Some of the boys have wanted them but I just hold on to them in case we do have some steep ground work and a log train situation in the future.

It was kind of humbling to find those tools in a skid trail that someone else had worked, probably before I was even alive. Not comparable to finding an arrowhead of native American artifact but a reminder of those who had been there before us. Then we started making up stories about how they were lost. Maybe the last skid of the day on a Friday and they just didn’t go back and look and then a rain event came and covered them with silt. Lots of speculation from all the crew about how they got there, lots to think about in the work of the logging with animals.

Some of the modern guys will use a metal detector to look for lost grabs and chains these days, especially you guys working in snow cover. I don’t have one but have considered it occasionally when something metal and important disappears.

Thanks for the tip on NH having those grabs, we’ll pass it along. Ronnie Tucker had told me they could still be bought too, and gave me a link to buy them over the net, but most of the BWM don’t have a computer. We’ll see some of them over the holiday so I’ll pass that info along. I wonder if they make a skip hammer too?

[Gabe Ayers]

Of the many biological woodsmen in our group there are just about as many combination’s of chains. Most just have two choker’s one 12-14 feet long 5/16ths common chain with a choker hook on one end, the type bought from Bailey’s or a modified cheap hook with the mouth closed with a welded piece to make just a small opening slot so the chain won’t come out as easy and the short chain usually has a slot hook (store bought) on the other end. This is the chain used most and if we need a longer chain to drag logs out of the tops and brush we hook it to the longer second chain. The second chain is 20-24 feet long with a choker on both ends. This sometimes allows us to use one chain on some bigger logs when we use the cradle hitch.

I have read that several other practitioners on here use that method of attaching to the log in order to obtain higher front end suspension on bigger logs, and decrease any potential tongue slap on a two wheeled arch. We always use this attachment method with bigger logs and when we multiple hitch.

I learned it from an old logger from Vermont that came here many years ago to learn horsemanship. He was a old school guy but hadn’t worked horses much and I won’t mention any names. But if he picked up the chain and it had a knot in it he would honestly want to quit for the day because he said a knot in the chain was “bad luck”. I laughed at that and told him the bad luck would be if you were too dumb to know how to untie the knot. He was quite skilled but hard headed about some stuff. He was very difficult (impossible) to get to wear a hard hat. Then one day when wedging a big white oak off a fence row and back into the woods so we wouldn’t have to fix fence or pick up brush out of the neighbors field (non paying work avoided by felling skill) a small and I mean like the size of your finger twig feel out of the top of that tree and hit him dead center in the head. The blood was flowing freely for a while. His hair was just long enough that I tied a knot in the hair to close the cut and then with a handkerchief laid on it, under a hard hat, that he was from that point forward willing to keep up with and wear, when we went back to work.

Several of the Appalachian BWM still use grabs or the hooks that you drive into the log and skip out at the landing. These were manufactured by Dixie the same folks that still make cant hooks. They are not available anymore, so these kinds search every yard sale and flea market for them and covet them closely. Grabs were made in two sizes a O and #1, they were arranged on chains that were different lengths, longer for header grabs and shorter for trail grabs. There have been some attempts to make this with a plasma cutter out of steel and they are just not the same as the drop forged ones. They don’t stand up to the driving in and skipping out. A skip hammer is also a hard tool to find, they are no long manufactured to my knowledge. Most guys just take a cutting torch to a small maul and make the point sharper or more conical than the original shape and use them on shorter handle that is hung on the horses hames with a rope tied through a hole in the end of the handle. My old arms and elbows are just not up to hammering much these days, but the younger guys like them because the are faster than excavating under a log to get the choker around it and really are faster in some cases. We don’t have anyone here using tongs for skidding, they simply put the load to far away from the team to handle big wood and we don’t work in the snow as much as the woodsmen in the north.

We name all our geldings after tools. Our newest working horse is named Chain.

[Gabe Ayers]

Since going to another web site and reading stuff there may be more than some folks will do I will post the Nature’s Tree Marking Paint, Indicator system of common sense single tree selection method.

The point is that this is an example of how we train Biological Woodsmen to identify the “worst first” trees. This is not just a random thing, it is an experiential learned collection of indicators observed prior to cutting a tree down and the confirmed in the observations after the tree is turned into a log.

This method is expressly created for the Appalachian Oak Hickory Hemlock forest type and is intended to be applied in that forest type. There is a good opportunity for others in other forest types to develop an indicator system of declining, low performing trees in/for their particular forest type.

Another important issue about this method of improvement harvesting or what we call “Restorative Forestry”, is that it fits the objectives of many Non-industrial private forest landowners. So their satisfaction with the timber harvesting methods and the results of an improved faster growing and income generating forested condition, may lead to a reduction of stumpage paid for the “worst first” trees on what we call a sliding scale. We only pay for the timber when it reaches a raw log value about what we want on a per thousand basis to harvest the timber. We would like to make 250.00 per thousand to harvest in most settings and that is where we start paying for the wood, on a percentage basis. The services of restorative forestry are so beneficial in the long term value and immediate enhanced natural appearance of the forest that most landowners are happy with getting paid to improve their forest.

I am sure we could have further discussions about this approach in response to this post.

The point is that animal powered forestry must differentiate itself from mechanized harvesting and the silviculture of how to cut the timber is the logical starting point. We will never out produce a machine so why try? We don’t want to suffer the John Henry syndrome, where we work hard to compete with a machine and die from the effort like the John Henry story.

So this is the beginning of discussions of how we see the best silviculture or how we cut the timber and make a living as animal powered forestry practitioners.

Thanks for taking the time to read this material if you are interested in practicing superior forestry. I look forward to the discussions.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

Question:

Hay, do you know what we call a good second cutting hay bale in the back of the Escort station wagon?

Answer:

A forty pound Appalachian air freshener. Doesn’t hang from the rear view mirror very well, but does the job….

[Gabe Ayers]

First I have to say I don’t believe in insurance. It is betting against your own safe operation, if that makes any sense. Most people never need or use it and pay for the few that do.

It adds to the cost of operation to the point of keeping it more likely to not make a living at the work at all, particularly if you are working in a marginal situation from the onset, marginal meaning cheap wood. All the security net trappings of modern society seem to be geared to making other people money and me poorer. It is a deterrent to true sustainability.

The Amish don’t have it and I don’t want it either unless mandated by law to operate.

Those are just my personal opinions but also the way I have operated personally for 45 years now.

It is my understanding that in Va., if you don’t have three employee’s you are not required to have WC. This is why we would have people work with us on a pro rated basis, bring their own tools, drive their own vehicles, set their own hours and be sub contractors responsible for their own safety. We also issue and have them sign a 1099 form before starting.

The students all sign a wavier or two waviers from the start. It probably doesn’t protect me if I’m negligent and that wouldn’t be any different if I had insurance.

So I have no answers, we operate by the seat of our pants and that is because we simply can’t afford any more. We use a hold harmless clause in our harvesting agreement to protect the landowner and we go to work.

Now all that said, I want you to know that we are safety eccentrics… we are about safety first, safe side, safe operating rules…safe as we can make it.

Like the one of if the wind is blowing more than 20 miles per hour we don’t work in the woods, period….that would have saved a few breathless moments for LanceK according to his other post about working in the swamp.

We only get about 185 days a year in the woods, other days we are doing other things, like sawing, stacking, unstacking, planing, hauling lumber, firewood and other things besides being in the woods during falling weather or high winds.

Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.

We do have a little system where we have self insured somewhat. We put a portion of a penny a foot for the DRAFTWOOD sales into a fund that we use to help anyone in bad shape, but fortunately we haven’t had many and knocking on wood, none from while working in the woods.

We are not large enough to do that well through the DRAFTWOOD program yet.

Self insurance is probably the best solution for anyone if we could figure out the right system. I’ve read that if you put the normal insurance premium money into a bank account and the bank didn’t fail, you’d have more money than you need to retire at 62, with normal health issues along the way.

[Gabe Ayers]

Well, this is something of a big question. Frankly I have no answers. I would suppose this discussion is within the closed group?

Jason

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Don and Fellow Dappers,

We are looking forward to having you with us and will share techniques to enhance your safety and skills at doing this work. At the moment we have about the same snow cover as in your flyer photo, so maybe some experience in those conditions will be a part of your time with us.

I have to agree with the other folks that suggest taking the FREE word out of the ad. Not that you don’t want to invite peoples interest, but our experience is that about 70% percent of the folks that call us don’t have any timber and usually don’t have any money to pay for TSI either. So that leads us to look for other ways of paying for the services of forest improvement activities that don’t pay for themselves through the value of extracted goods. That reality is a harder nut to crack. In Virginia there is support for TSI work, but it requires a forest management plan and some long term relating with NRCS or the department of forestry to get that support.

“Site inspections available” – would be more appropriate and then they may ask if there is a fee, and like Scott suggest keep it modest, but keep it real. There is no free anything, except maybe on an adjoining neighboring landowner whose woods you have seen for a while anyway.

As Scott suggests the questions you ask any callers are important. The first and most important is “What are your objectives with your woods”.
If the answer is make the most money off of it as possible, from the beginning, you maybe should just say “next”, because that is not what you or any animal powered practitioner will be able to provide. We are slow and this work is about quality of services and not volume of production.

I understand the phrase “auspicious beginnings” and that you are excited about finding places to work and that you know you can do good work in any woods. The point by those who have done this work for a while is that you can’t give your time or skills away.

I would imagine we will get some time to talk about all this in person while you are here.

Other suggestions, always wear PPG, Personal Protective Gear that shows you are a professional and therefore your services are worth more. This includes your photos. Be sure to bring all that PPG with you when you make the trip to Appalachia. Don’t relegate your services to the most difficult spots, but instead look for the best forests, where your superior services will have the most positive effect. You don’t have to work on a rocky mountainside with marginal timber to get started. You’d be better off dragging your pastures or scrapping the driveway than do that kind of work from the start.

It also would be appropriate that you join or investigate what is going on with the DAPFI group. One of the most encouraging aspects of this new group is helping all of us define our services as being far more than just “Horse Logging”.

When you say improve your woodlot, you will need to be able to describe this in advance and perform the tasks of actually doing it while actually making some money at it.

Looks like you have a good start though and hopefully you will find all the work you want to do during the leaf off period of winter.

Hopefully you will get a chance to write about your experience while here with us and use that experience to help you in the future.

Looking forward to having you with us.

Jason and Jagger Rutledge

[Gabe Ayers]

Carl, would you help with original list of folks on the private working group, I looked for it here but can’t find it.

I agree with John, everybody should be on the list, that’s why I put (fill in the blank) hoping someone would fill in the names, but I guess the secretary will do that now that we have asked him directly.

If everyone agrees with the post after we put all the names on it – we will put it out there.

thanks folks

[Gabe Ayers]

Here is what I have come up with so far, please edit or comment as you see fit.

Hello Rural Heritage Front Porch folks,

I’ve volunteered to introduce a fledgling international organization to the general draft animal community. This group is described in purpose and mission below.
This new effort has been developed to this point with the help of a core group of serious animal powered forestry folks that include: Jason Rutledge, Va., Carl Russell, VT, Scott Golden, CO., Simon Lenihan, UK., Jean Leo Dugast., France, Jason Cruse, NZ., Ian Snider, NC., Ben Sumner, Va.,add names fill in the blanks if you think it is appropriate).

We introduce this group to invite participation. We currently have several projects yet to be undertaken, but thought some of the general community of interest would like to be a part of it from the beginning. Anyone seriously interested is invited to visit http://www.draftanimalpower.com and go to the (fill in the blank page)

Let us know what you think. It is time to put all the minds, hands and hearts of animal powered forestry folks on the same page. We welcome your interest.

“Draft Animal Powered Forestry, International” (DAPFI)

Mission Statement

“To promote the use of draft animal powered timber harvesting methods that support positive impact forest management”

Primary Goals

1) “To improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.”

2) “To serve as a networking, clearinghouse and contact information for individuals and organizations involved in animal powered forestry throughout the world.”

3) ”To advance an ecological perspective of forest management, based on the use of draft animals, and other low impact/low input strategies.”

4) ”Work with researchers to study and publish ecological benefits of animal logging.”

[Gabe Ayers]

I’ll do it but I want to run it by the core first. More later.

[Gabe Ayers]

I will volunteer to post on the RH Front Porch.

Would someone like to author the text of the announcement? What should we say?

Thanks woodsmen,

[Gabe Ayers]

I nominate Scott as the Chairman/President, Carl as the vice President or secretary.

I volunteer myself to head the value adding committee.

I think we should have an international rep. to seek the participation of our other practitioners located world wide. I nominate Simon Lenihan for that Committee head.

Here we go….

[Author]

Posts