[Gabe Ayers]

My understanding is that equine have a circular nerve at the bottom of their stomachs that when the stomach contracts from being empty that nerve basically shuts down the progress of food through the digestive tract. It kind of makes sense they would work that way as evolving from animals that in the wild may have to travel miles to get forage on the steps of Mongolia and then further to get water.

That is something I’ve noticed when folks tuck pulling horses to get them in weight classes. Once they stop getting water they stop eating and they stop pooping.

I have never been able to make myself do this type of shrinking stuff, but have seen it done and the horses can go for long periods of time without food, even when working. It is certainly a wonderful feature to have beast of burden with so much tolerance of variance in their life needs to be of great service to mankind.

Once I had an apprentice working in the woods with us and he decided the horses need some hay in the middle of the day, so he took their bridles off and put a bale in front of them at lunch, while I was driving the log truck. Well he didn’t bother to get them some water too and that evening one those horses became colicky and it took hours with the vet and hundreds of dollars to save that horses life. It is funny because that particular apprentice went on to become a veterinarian himself and learned an important lesson on working horses and feeding in the midday from that experience. Water is the most important ingredient in their diet.

We don’t use any treats either, tends to make the horses think about eating instead of working. The best reward for any beast of burden is cessation of demand or whoa. Feeding an animal from hand makes them think that anyone may have treats in their hand which doesn’t bode well for visitors, particularly little kids reaching up to pet them on the nose… The boss horse in the wild doesn’t feed them by hand, just takes them to where food/water is….

Of course I think the horses do think we are going into the woods or fields looking for something to eat, because they definitely will browse leaves when they can reach them and if you don’t have a head check on them they will try to graze.

[Gabe Ayers]

Well I am still unsure about how to respond technically, so I am trying reply to this message that came from the secret forum.

This is good stuff folks, great work. I will add some comments in italics below.

Draft Animal Power – Sustainable Farming, Forestry and Living wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Carl Russell has just posted in the Draft Animal Logging Association Working Group forum of Draft Animal Power – Sustainable Farming, Forestry and Living under the title of Whoa, focus – Let’s bring it all in….
>
> This thread is located at http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=2022
>
> Here is the message that has just been posted:
> ***************
> I have included my comments in blue below, Carl
>
>
> —Quote (Originally by Scott G)—
> …….
> So, all of that said lets get down to details. I will outline several point by point below. Please respond to them in the same fashion for ease of organization.
>
> 1) What is the consensus and/or discussion on what I’ve mentioned so far?
> It sounds as though the consensus is that networking via an international communication effort is primary with the end goal being the formation of an international association based on input from contributors & subscribers.
> I agree with this.
>
> 2) Throw out some names for the effort. Ideally ones that could carry over into the eventual association. Key words could/would be; draft, forestry, logging, powered, animal, international, etc..
> International Draft Animal Forestry Initiative (IDAFI)
>
/Animal Powered Logging Association of the World (APLAW) –

I like the above suggestion also, it just doesn’t have the word association in it, which may be more appropriate if this effort elects to exist without the gubment sanctioning… this may be appropriate if we have an existing non profit 501c3 that could act as a fiscal agent in the unlikely event that some funding arises that could support the group with a restriction that it can only come to a 501c3. HHFF stands ready as a 10 y.o. ngo that would be a fitting umbrella org. for/to this effort.
/
> 3) Mission statement. This should be 1-3 sentences at _most_.
> To facilitate the international connection between draft animal forestry practitioners, exchanging information, providing benefits of association (ie. insurance, cooperative marketing,etc.), and advocating toward mutual goals.
>
> 4) Goals. List five goals, in order of priority, for this effort. Clear, concise, and limited to one complete sentence.
> 1. to establish an international directory of associations, organizations, and individuals who are supporting /(or practicing)/ the work of draft animal forestry practitioners.
>
> 2. to develop a network of information sharing, such as websites, e-newsletter, and hard-copy newsletter to support /(and promote)/ the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.
>
> 3. to form an association to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.
>
> 4. to improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.
>
> 5. to advance an ecological perspective of forest management, based on the use of draft animals, and other low impact/low input strategies.
>
>
/6. To serve as a networking, clearinghouse and contact information for individuals and organizations involved in animal powered forestry throughout the world.

7. To serve as an official body to support collaboration, research and demonstration with all interest groups on the issues of sustainable forestry including, governmental, non governmental organizations (NGO), academic institutions, municipalities, private landowners and those individuals interested in actually doing this work.

8. Establish a mentor /apprentice network world wide.
/
> …….
> —End Quote—

[Gabe Ayers]

We like the order to be water, hay, grain and at least thirty minutes before working. If they won’t drink because they are hungry, give them a flake or two of hay and after a few minutes of eating offer them water and then put them back to eating hay and once it is all gone give them concentrates (grain).

Water is the most important thing they consume, but they won’t drink much if they are real hungry. They also learn the routine and won’t drink if they anticipate grain coming….

[Gabe Ayers]

Try Norm Macknair in Pa. His website may have a photo of a big four he has for sale.

http://www.macknair.com

Maybe someone will post a photo here too.

Good luck, glad you are on the site.

[Gabe Ayers]

There is an anti fungal product called MicroTec that is the best one shot stuff we have used for scratches or rain rot. We have also used a tincture made from comfrey and rubbing alcohol, but that will sting if it is raw. The MicroTec
stuff comes in a black spray bottle and is not cheap…keep it from freezing and use it sparingly.

[Gabe Ayers]

Swamp Oak, glad you are on this board and coming to SDAD. There will be several people there from Kentucky. The Weaver’s from Liberty will be there with their animal powered treadmill, demonstrating irrigation systems, washing machines, generators, ice cream making….

Of course the famous Kentuckian Wendell Berry and his son Den and grandson Marshall will be their too. He is speaking on Saturday evening in the big tobacco barn.

There will also be lots of new equipment, hay making, modern horse logging and many folks that you will enjoy meeting.

Hey and the best kind of southerner might be a self made one….ain’t really any difference, the good horsemen are about the same everywhere.

Welcome,

[Gabe Ayers]

Tim,

Nothing has happened to the Restorative Forestry Forum site, it is still there.
Although there has not been allot of activity from participants. The primary purpose was to promote restorative forestry through the practice of worst first single tree selection and the ultimate low impact overland extraction method of modern animal power. The discussion and exploring of this approach is intended to expand the number of practitioners through education of the superior nature of this work for the landowner’s benefit.

I think this is a reflection of the reality of some forums on the internet. Unless they are monitored daily by a human, they are constantly infiltrated by computer robots that put all sorts of stupid stuff on the site, just like what shows up here (DAP) regularly, including some offensive stuff at times. This is exactly the same thing we experience on the RF site.

We get maybe a half dozen request for memberships weekly almost all of which are bogus (robots) or not a real person interested in the site for what it is or was intended to be – a discussion site about the tenets of Restorative Forestry.

I think this is an important consideration for the development of APLAW or whatever we end up calling an international animal powered logging association. I am not sure of what to do about it. I certainly am not technically qualified to say much about computer technology or the internet.

Maybe someone else will know more about how we can grow this effort through the internet, but I still suspect their are many potentially powerful
participants that don’t have a computer, the internet or any way to be a part of this outside of their physical world and community, so we must keep that in mind as this effort moves forward.

Anyone is welcome to join the RF site and participate on the subjects or create new ones, once they go through the hoops of getting approved on the site.

This is a sad situation, but it reminds me of the first cartoon
I saw about the internet being the “information super highway”. The cartoon had a drawing of a big six lane road that was bumper to bumper garbage trucks. Sad but true.

[Gabe Ayers]

A picture of Joel device would be very helpful. Somebody go over and take a photo of that thing for Joel.

There were once similar devices with a rachet arrangement on the wheels that jacked the log up when pulled forward. I don’t know what it was called. Haven’t seen one for a while.

I am going to attach a photo of some of our new age forestry products, which are actually ancient food.

These are Chanterelle Mushrooms that brought about $10.00 per pound sold to our local organic farmer and food distributor.

They are in flush now in central Appalachia.

[Gabe Ayers]

Find a ring that is to big to go through the hame line ring, but large enough to let your buckle on the end of the line go through and put it in front of that on your lines so it catches the buckle on the spreader line before it goes through the hame ring and causing a runaway. You can’t hold/drive them by the shoulders.

This has been done with a piece of thick back leather also, but the ring works better.

This is especially a good trick with a young pair being started out on the ground without a tongue. We have found that sometimes old worn out halters will have such a diameter ring.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Folks,

I suppose a network is a beginning but I agree that a formal association would be the eventual goal. Not for the sake of having a formal organization, but for the effort to be enduring and ongoing beyond the efforts of this founding group. Yet the start doesn’t have to have that organizational burden from the onset but already exists as an exploratory group effort, storing the information and exchanges on Carl’s site as a start up.
The distinction between an exploratory group effort and an association will be defined by the collection of membership dues. At that point it will be an association with or without any government rules and regs. Again if having it as a part of an existing 501c3 as an umbrella organization it would be easier to get and keep up with funds that may be donated or collected from membership. We offer the support of Healing Harvest Forest Foundation in that capacity when the time comes to decide about that. At the same time we commit to contribute writings from our experiences from the onset. In fact there is much already written on the DAP site that could be useful information for interested members.

I second the motion of Scott being the moderator and chairman of the exploratory committee. Of course it would be better if he had faster internet service, but for text he can probably get allot of work done from that station nonetheless. If he types as slowly as most of us, it will work well.

So we start as a network, grow to be an association and ripen into the Animal Powered Logging Association of the World. (APLAW) (just a suggested name) I like it when names have hidden meaning or hidden in the obvious….

Do we want to refine our objectives next? The common sense expressed by Rick and others are appropriate terms for expressing the best efforts of this group. Will Scott be harnessed with the task of collecting these objectives in text and we all agree on them as the first page of our first information release?

Let me know what we can do next.

I will be out of town tomorrow doing a pre-event site inspection and organizing for the Southern Draft Animal Days event in Tennessee and will check back on this progress when we return. We will be glad to provide a free booth inclusion of this effort at this event if everyone agrees.

I also will be glad to contact Lynn Miller about gaining his support for this fledgling group too. We need the industry icons support in every way.

Good work folks, thanks for all of your sharing.

I remain in Warm Salute,

Jason Rutledge
Biological Woodsman
President, BOD
Healing Harvest Forest Foundation
http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org
540-651-6355

[Gabe Ayers]

Welcome to DAP – glad you found it. Summer has be different in each part of this country, mostly worse in different ways in most places. The one word description is “extreme” when it comes to weather.

There is an effort within this group to develop connections with other horse loggers throughout the world and I wonder if you would know anyone there that is doing the work of horse logging?

Thanks for joining us and helping us find others.

[Gabe Ayers]

John,

How about going to the normal chat board (Sustainable Forestry) and tell us about the job you just came back from in Mass. When you say “great job”, I would like to know about it. Or post the story wherever you want when you have time.

Most of what I have learned about this work has been from others.

Good to hear from Greg.

Does anyone have contact info on Rob in BC?

[Gabe Ayers]

Wow Rick, I never heard that name, that’s cool –

The HHFF Biological Woodsman training definitely includes whole forest management beyond just extraction of logs or timber. As long as it is within principles of restoration and therefore being truly a chance of a sustainable practice – it is something every modern horse logger should know about.

For instance, we have sold about a hundred bucks worth of chicken of the woods mushrooms in the last two days and that contributes seriously to our fuel bill, feed bill, etc.

This is particularly interesting from the perspective of input cost or input energy. It is a matter of knowing what they are, looking for them while resting your horses of whatever else you are doing in the woods and remembering to bring one of those bags you have behind the seat in the truck when you come back in the woods empty. That hundred bucks was carried out in a grocery bag. Much easier than the log. Free food or free money – if you know what you are looking for and a place to sell it. We sell them wholesale to a local organic food distributor. This particular variety brings from 8-10 bucks a pound.

There is a man named Gary Anderson in Kentucky that can present some serious figures supporting that the forest will make more money growing food than from extracted fiber. He does both, with horses – and is just scratching by like most of us, but he certainly has expanded and inspired our perspective on “wholistic” – “Integrated Forest Management (IFM) forest management. I call him a “Foresteader” because he espouses the 40 acres of woods and an animal and one can live without removing all the trees to practice agriculture everywhere. He has a website called:

http://www.roughcreekfarm.com

There is allot more to this than timber extraction. There is “value adding” the forest products from logs to keep more of the value with the people who take the best care of the source. Much of our last few days has been grading, stacking and stickering high quality hardwood lumber in a landowner’s shed… for a decent hourly wage. It was our lumber, sawed from our logs, (DRAFTWOOD) http://www.draftwood.com – all to be used in his home in the near future. That is part of the services we provide in this particular situation and with this landowner. I have posted about this job previously. This is a specialty situation. Anyone interested can read about it at:

http://www.crookedriver.wordpress.com/

So yes, the Biological Woodsmen is a “new age logger” I suppose, an organic logger, and organic forest manager, all sorts of things. The key is still the low impact extraction with modern animal power.

The point with HHFF is that being a woodsmen may mean being more than just being a “logger”. That doesn’t take anything away from anyone extracting logs with animals. It adds to it.

And none of us would know how to do any of it without learning to work the animals in the woods with the old school “horse loggers”.

Being an (active practitioner) should be a requirement to be part of the founding group of this proposed association.

Separating the group by geographical regions may be appropriate. Maybe not, we all have addresses, people will know where we are from.

The strongest thing about what we are all doing is what we have in common and that is probably greater than the differences we have on a site specific geographic or national basis.

I read Greg saying he was farming now, enjoying multiple hitches and wasn’t logging anymore. Given the prices of wood this is very understandable.

This group needs old school and new school ideas and approaches.

I agree with Rick.

The more people we get involved from the beginning the better, it will evolve down to a core organically. Be as inclusive as the culture will qualify and the technology will allow.

[Gabe Ayers]

Try spraying the entire plant concentrating on the lower banches with cows milk.

The late blight will be bad if it is cool and moist.

It does have to do with draft animal power because I cultivated them with our horses.

If the draft animal person doesn’t have food they won’t work their animals…

[Gabe Ayers]

Carl,

What exactly is the procedure to post on this “secret” page to this group?

I am sort of computer challenged I suppose and can’t figure out how to just post to this group.

I also think the size of the group should not be limited at any stage of development and should include “proven practitioners” recommended by other members.

I appreciate your rejecting Bret, I will quit the entire effort if I have to deal with that sort of person in the process.

What were you thinking he would contribute Scott?

Proven practitioners are the key, if they aren’t actually doing this work then they shouldn’t be allowed in the exploratory committee.

Just my opinion.

Hopefully this won’t go to the entire membership, but as mentioned earlier I am not confident of the navigation here at this point. Thanks for making this simple enough that an old horselogger can figure it out.

Thanks for you help especially at this time of year when you are gearing up for your event.

[Author]

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