[Baystatetom]

I was in the woods all day today with a paint gun deciding which trees stay and which will be harvested. I had plenty of time to mull things over in my mind and consider this topic. I think I now have a much better understanding of what Carl is calling economy of scale. As I think pro and con I always come back to finance. The only reason to have modern forestry practices and modern high production machinery is finance. We all have to make money. I can’t just change my way of doing things overnight, I would go broke for certain. Like I have always said, I do the best possible job within the circumstances that I have to work with. To make a living and sleep at night knowing I did a good job I have to find the middle ground. Draft animal folks have to find clients that let that middle ground be farther to one side then right in the middle.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

Andy, in your search for scientific proof also consider that forestry is an art and not just a science. Everyday I head out into the woods see what is there, envision what I want it to look like, and make it happen. I may have had some science based training in college but I think I practice more of an art.
This also made me think of the definition of forestry. As I remember anyway: The art and science of managing the forest for the benefit of man and nature.
This also reminds me of one time at my Uncles place when I returned home across the field and my wife asked who was fighting. I replied nobody. She then asked why we were all yelling. I just laughed and said we were all agreeing about an issue but for some reason were still compelled to yell about it.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

I guess the first thing I have to say Andy is that we think about things very differently. You seem to take a mathematic/scientific approach to things. My mind just doesn’t work that way. I don’t mean that as a dig at you in anyway just that I might have trouble explaining myself.
When I made those original statements I was thinking of selecting the same trees for harvesting, in other words putting horse to skidder head to head on the exact same job. The value of draft animals in the woods is not having to follow those same rules required to complete the job with machines, which is what you were just talking about, and what I have come to learn.
The most recent job I marked for harvest is roughly 300 mbf which I expect to sell for around $180/mbf with a gross of $54,000. I charge 20% for my services that comes to $10,800, leaving the landowner with $43,200 cash in the bank. I had to mark strips through this stand with occasional holes or patches in the canopy always being aware that I had to have room for a tracked feller buncher and 8 wheeled forwarder to move around. I would not expect to harvest this stand again for 20 years.
If we harvested this property with draft power I could have done a much lighter thinning, removing only those trees that were of poor quality or mature to the point where they would not increase in value. My volume per acre may have been around 1-2mbf verses 7.5mbf/acre for the machine harvest. But once the initial improvement work was done the property could be visited every couple of years harvesting only mature trees and/or thinning gradually around good pockets of regeneration. The down side is the cost of doing this work with draft power is still greater then the value of the wood. The first improvement cut or two would probably result in a negative cash flow to the landowner. Eventually as the quality of trees harvested increased the value would also increase and the landowner could see some revenue. But right now I expect draft power logging should be in the neighborhood $200-250/mbf. (please correct me if I am wrong) White pine delivered to the mill is $250/mbf. So we would be asking the LO to sell timber at a loss right now so that in a few years they could break even or at best make $50/mbf verses the $180 a machine brings in right now.
The value is in the intangible benefits. If I think there is any chance at all a land owner is interested in draft powered logging I will relentlessly pursue the opportunity. But pretty much all of the people who hire me are doing so because they want me to make them money. My job as a forester is to do the best possible job within the constraints with which I have to work. I take the best possible forestry, the landowners goals, timber markets, and the logging contractors needs and combine them all into a project we can all live with. I am now pretty well convinced that I can do a better job with my oxen then I can expect from the majority of mechanized crews, right up until you consider finances and then things swing strongly to the mechanized operators.
It may be true that with better more valuable timber more money would be left for the landowner. I have several clients where I have done improvement harvests and left only the best trees on the property. These harvests removed large quantities of poor quality trees that resulted in a small financial gain for the LO. Those would have been extremely expensive harvest with draft power. However I think I can now start going back into those lots and start harvesting red oaks greater then 24″ dbh and leave those that are 23″ and less. Wait a few years and go back for the 24″ers again. This might be more feasible with draft power. Use the machines for the dirty work then get the draft power in?
I really think a high-bred system may be the happy medium for most harvests. Like I said before it is going to require a change in the culture of property owners in general before this moves out of being a niche market.
I really don’t have the brain power to figure out the difference in volume grown per acre over a given time period using even aged management verses uneven aged but it would be interesting to know how long it would take for that horse powered operation to level the playing field on volume produced/acre.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

The best part was when Carl explained how he could work his horses around the sapling white pines without damaging them. And then when I was hooking a choker my steers ate them :p
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

I had to bring this up again. I still stand by my statement that a good operator makes the difference not the tool used, however now that I have a few jobs under my belt with my oxen I am less and less happy with my mechanical crews.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

What a great weekend! The best part in my mind is getting to hang out with like minded folks. I don’t get to talk shop much. I would encourage everybody to find a workshop and take part. Its worth it for sure.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

Taking a trip over there tomorrow to drop off scoot, go-devil, and arch. Maybe drop a few trees. I can’t wait its going to be a good weekend in the woods with good people to share it with.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

I can’t even imagine what you must be going through right now. I hope these most difficult days pass quickly for you and your wife.
So Sorry for your loss,
Tom

[Baystatetom]

I found the irons from an old set of bobsleds rusting away out in the woods a while ago. I think there was some stake pockets with small rings on them for binding the load that were still good. I’ll go back out and look at them. But it will be at least a week before I can get back there, so keep looking in the mean time.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

I have no experience with anything but two steers in a yoke, but my friend and I discovered that while pulling our ice fishing shanty with ATV’s that we have a much easier time pulling it if we hook the two together end to end then if we hook them side by side. Anybody ever try a similar thing with draft power and come to a conclusion of which has greater advantage? I realize four abreast would be more feasible in field work then woods work but does side by side verses in front of one another make a difference as far as how hard they have to work to pull the load?
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

There is one guy around here who trims and shoes a huge number of oxen. So far as I know he has one set of stocks, or one stock however you say it. I would presume that one size pretty much works for all. His has blocks of wood that can be moved along the frame that he straps the foot to so he can work on them. It has been so long since I have seen it I can’t remember the details, but I think I might have him shoe mine this winter so I’ll get some pictures eventually.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

Just tonight I finally got some advice about forest management and the EAB from somebody I trust to know what they are talking about.
First when it comes to nice saw logs, cut them when you can before infestation, second the EAB will attack stressed trees first so by intentionally stressing poor quality trees by girdling or some other means you can prolong the amount of time until the EAB comes after the good ones. Finally once you notice those stressed trees have been infested cut them and stack them so they will dry out as quickly as possible hence stopping the larva from maturing.
Of course here in western Massachusetts the majority of our ash is stressed already from drought stress, native insects, and ash yellows any way.
This may or may not be feasible on a big scale but at least somebody finally said more then management is impossible.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

Looks like the bottom of your yoke has a corner on the inside near the bows. Could that corner be contacting a shoulder when they start pulling? It would be a easy thing to change.
Does the problem steer give as much trouble when just walking around in the yoke without a load on or is it just when pulling? How about if you tie their collars together and walk them around with no yoke at all. If he acts fine then, it is more likely a yoke thing then a attitude thing.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

My thought was lowering the bow on my fast steer slowed him down. Probably because it was less comfortable for him. Therefore that could be the reason the other was moving slow. Adjusting the bow could make it more comfortable for him.
I am not sure it would change the position of their head while pulling though. For me adjusting the bows up or down worked on slowing my fast steer, but not for speeding up my slower one. I found this out quite by accident while fitting them into a new yoke.
I think pulling with their head up is better, it lets them get up under the yoke like they are lifting with their necks, as opposed to pushing against the yoke with their heads down. If you can train a head down steer to pull with his head up I would love to try it.

[Baystatetom]

I struggled with a fast steer myself. I moved the staple an inch to his side. It slows him down on a good load but he still charges ahead on a light load or no load. I also tried switching sides but gave up on it due to lack of time to retrain them. I have accepted this “problem” as a fact of life. Other then annoying me it doesn’t seem to hamper their ability to do the job I want them to do.
Droverone is right playing with the bows can make a big difference. It never sped up my slow one, thank god cause if they were both that fast I couldn’t keep up. However dropping the bow lower slows down the fast one. I wouldn’t do that on purpose as it obviously is uncomfortable for him, but I think it lends credit to the idea that it can make a big difference.
If the nigh steer is pulling away from you to the gee side, I would not switch sides. I would rather try and put a halter on him so when he tries to pull away you can jerk his nose back over were it belongs and keep him moving straight.
Having that third steer is a big asset as well. Don’t beef him until your sure you have the right two in the yoke!
~Tom

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