[bivol]

I’M GLAD NOTHING HAPPENED TO YOU! :eek::eek::eek:that was an intense situation …

but i did enjoy your story a lot, thank you for sharing it OldKat, and good job!!

in such situations the attack can be, as you know, the best defense. it sure worked, and i think Rusty will put you on his “avoid them:” list.
good thing we talked about cattle aggression, you never know when you need it, and i’m glad you could use it before it was too late.

that bull was at the hight of his aggression; he defeated another bull, and was feeling like “the king of the field”! he was sure he was the strongest in the field, and he would fight every intruder!

but, he never attacked a human being, so he pauses (thanks to you waving cap , GOOD THINKING!), and when his attack stops, you hit!
after the first fist (first pain has to be strong to make the point!) he was so shocked, and staggered, and then the most important part comes: you, at once, step forward (take the initiative), and whack him again, and he sees you’re still not done!

at that point he’s bein assaulted by an opponent who is causing him lots of pain, whom he doesn’t know how to fight against, who is very aggressive and is constantly attacking without break! his offense crumbles (you had clearly demonstrated you’re way stronger) so he’s getting outta there NOW!

attacking without giving them time to think is most important. good thinking you waved that baseball cap, he paused, that was enough to assault him.

analyzing the situation, i have a question: did Oklahoma! see you drive Rusty away?
if he did, or if he at least figured out you did, that means you beat the bull that beat him, which could make you even bigger in his eyes. though i don’t know if cattle have this kind of reasoning, they should, but i don’t want to jump to conclusions.

just an idea:
maybe one day, when you won’t be as nimble (sorry,:p but none of us is getting any younger) you could take a good dog with you, like an american bulldog, that could, if need be, protect you and drive the bull off in case he charges you.
they used to have such dogs in the past to work cattle… the only problem would be that cattle may not respect you without your dog.

thanks for telling what happened!

[bivol]

yes, Wolfgang, similar to these, only squarer in the neck seat.

i knew you use rattan, but rattan is a type of palm, while willow, in part. white willow (salix alba) is a tree.
does willow act similar to rattan under stress?
i mean a thumb-thick willow?

i wanted to use willow because unlike iron pipes, it makes possible to bend bows like a falling drop of water.
such bows need to be a little bent to go over the neck, possible with willow, not so possible with iron.
and besides, willow seems less trouble to bend than ladonja, that i’d have to use otherwise to make a traditional style histrian yoke.
they use “ladonja” for bows, a tree from the elm family. don’t be confused by its latin name Celtis Australis, “celtis” comes from the greek word “celt”, which means “the one who drives”, or “the whip”, as ladonja was both tough and bendable, and was used for making sticks and whips, and “australis” means “southern” as this tree was.
don’t know how they bent them, though.

i guess more research next year:rolleyes:

[bivol]

here i found some vids of bulls working:

pulling a cart in an obstacle (holes too) course in a head yoke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyCwdO-KmrI&feature=related

plowing with ard plow in Bolivia. note how one throws dirt with its legs as a challenge.
but they do seem more enthusiastic to pull than oxen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7EqH2WhZQ8

[bivol]

@OldKat 11491 wrote:

You are correct bivol; when I said I kicked them in the mouth, I suspect that I actually hit the front of the mouth AND the nose.

Ever noticed when you have cattle in a squeeze chute or sometimes even in an alleyway that they put their heads down? They do NOT like their nose getting banged around, they are trying to protect their noses from getting bumped. That is why I go for that part of the face to establish dominance. Trying to “spank” them on the rump, the shoulder or worse yet the top of the poll will only result in broken blood vessels in your hand and doesn’t deter the beast in the least bit.

I understand what you are saying about Junior not moving away fast enough. I fully expected him to challenge me again, and he may. So far however, he wants no part of standing up to me.

nice to know, i did notice the bulls in bull running in Spain have their heads down, but i always thought they’d do it to protect themselves from people and to attack, but i didn’t think they use their horns as a bumper! smart critters!:D

as for junior, there’s always a willing size 12 boot! although i think he’ll challenge you more carefully if (better, when) he chalenges you. that was a fast pain he was unprepared against, so his challenge should be meeker at start, i suppose… but don’t take my word for it, be careful, and at the slightest sign, fire!

an idea how to put him in his place?
cattle test and defend dominance usually when they fight over something of their interest, like feed bowl or water. so instead of waiting for junior to challenge you again, i.e. him taking the initiative, you can scare him off the feeding bowl or something, to prove you’re stronger. so you have the initiative. maybe use an electro-shock, or a pointed goad, a stick to hit the nose, or the good old boot, but drive him off. that will send the message that you can challenge him anytime, anywhere, and away from his personal interest, food. maybe feed the herd some food prior to the test so he’s not all desperate?

i had such an idea when taming wild oxen, when they’re hungry and want to eat, to come to the fence where their food is, and devoid them of access for a short time by a pointed goad. that would send the message i’m dominant, i guess. after that they can eat. once the dominance was established.

anyway, that’s just an untested idea, feel free to discard it at any ground, because i don’t know just how dangerous it is to stand between a bull and his feedbowl.

Charly, no problem, glad you liked them!

[bivol]

@OldKat 11477 wrote:

About two weeks ago he butted me, HARD, in the buttocks. Luckily I was moving away from him, so no damage was done.

However, I decided to put a stop to this nonsense before it went any further. I had on a pair of heavy work boots and I kicked him as hard as I could right in the mouth. He looked stunned for a second, then put down his head again and bellowed. When he started moving toward me, he got another pop right in the mouth … again, as hard as I could deliver it. He got the message and walked away shaking his head. Sound cruel? Probably does, but in another year or so when he weighs a ton or more it will be a little too late to correct the problem. He could seriously injure someone and I just cannot allow that.

cruel? don’t think so.

necessary? absolutely.

a practical way to keep cattle at bay, and to discipline them if they try to test dominance. did you kick them in the nose? it’s their most sensible part, so i can understand them giving in.

also, think it’s good thing you didn’t use some tool, like a goad or a whip, because they would try to test your dominance when you wouldn’t have that tool with you.

herd animals have herd hierarchy, and if we don’t stay on the top of their hierarchy, they will try to climb to the top.
i remember reading a story about a woman who was terrorized by her pet pig. she bought a little piglet and spoiled it, and asserted no firm dominance over it. anyway, the pig grew into a fully grown boar, and started bullying her “master” to give him food. it even went so far as to lock her up in the house until she gave him food. i think the pig was taken by rspca, or sth.

one word for that pig: sausage. *period*

at first i thought that junior just walking away (as opposed to running away) was too little, that he maybe thought it as a draw.

but now my guess is that this running away thing in dominance comes from lost duels between bulls. the looser has to be chased out of the surrounding of the herd. establishing dominance over herd members doesn’t require chasing away a subordinate animal, i think…:confused:

i have some new vids, too.

a nice resolution footage of a guy plowing with an ard plow in Peru, judging by the plow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkdBI_wLvPo

an old lady plowing behind her cows
http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo-Jb2qPFY
there are three such vids, click on the vid menu on the right.

a nice horse plowing fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0QXQMLTlzc&feature=related

qa man burying(?) potatoes with horse and plow.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRCKOt6EFU&feature=related

and the lastvid is showing two donkeys yoked and plowing, a rare and valuable vid of equines yoked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AnQDh7ZCoY&feature=related

[bivol]

@Ixy 11455 wrote:

Going from my own experiences only, it seems to be the confident/cheeky calves that become problematic. When I was first training Angus there was a shorthorn calf in with him – I would have picked him over Angus except it was so unafraid of me I just had a gut feeling it would be aggressive when it grew up. I was right – I ended up having to watch my back when i went in the pen as the second my back was truned it would butt me! I was told it was ‘only playing’ – but that’s not funny.

My brown swiss aimed a kick at me the day I got him home at 8 weeks – that was my first warning sign but I was assured calves aren’t mean at 8 weeks old…

guess one’s gut feeling turns out to be more valuable than is commonly given credit for. i always listen to mine, and mom never to hers. she always says she should have…

i don’t know who told you that butting was only play, but he/she is WRONG.
cattle test their dominance by butting like play, it’s how it starts, but it’s no game, not ever, no matter how small they are, they’re looking to undermine your authority, and it should be dealt swiftly with.
aggression towards humans is a big no-no.

still, i wonder, if one starts a calf, could it work to train them to stop, to get into a situation where a calf can butt you, and when he does, he gets it. and i mean really gets it. i know that might sound cruel, but maybe that’d sour him off trying to display agression towards you. it’s what a bull would do, more or less.

hm…. or ,maybe, if one can, get a new calf after all…:confused:

[bivol]

nice to know, thanks!

[bivol]

@CharlyBonifaz 11427 wrote:

their looks (colours); supposedly friendly, easy going characters, used to “work”, and… did I mention their looks? 😮

i agree. but i thougt when everything is put together, the semen cost too. and you’d have to AI five cows to have a remotely good chance of having male calves.

ixy, you did the right thing.
i wonder how, and if, one can tell on calves if one’s ox is going to become unpredictable when older.

[bivol]

well, it’s a packsaddle.

are cattle more comfy as they fill up?

[bivol]

here’s a pic i just found. works good enough, i guess.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PAVWag3Du_o/Soy1mqL_OBI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/dTCkkc1RqG8/s1600-h/S5000745.JPG

[bivol]

Ixy, ayshire as a foundation could very well work, too, no less cause they’re tougher than holsteins.
up i mentioned holstein crosses, they have dark hooves after jersey, and smaller, lighter, livelier, and also have hybrid vigour, which i hope should neutralize problems of bad health.
still, ayshire should be an even better foundation than h.

question: why’d you want texas longhorns, besides the horns?
i’m sure their semen is more expensive than j., if the calves are female, they have far less value than ayshXj. calves, or hXj. calves.

i don’t know about brown swiss, pesonaly i’d get it off the table, cause they tend to be in the slow gear. do you need slow oxen for cart work? better stick to ayshire as foundation….

[bivol]

@Howie 11406 wrote:

Any time an ox pushes by his own intuitive he will push with his head. This should tell you something.:)

examples from all around the world show cattle being worked with head yokes successfully.
pushing with the head is their natural way of deploying force, but how much this system (designed for relatively short duels) is really efficient in working conditions imposed by humans is another matter.

even if we consider other means of capturing power from the forehead, like the german forehead yokes, there stay long hours of balancing their power to the forehead and, constantly moving the point of push.

so, their natural tendencies may not provide the best (even if sufficient) solution to an unnatural behavior we demand of them.

also, the comfort point is important. they can pick a harnessing system after what fancies them in a given situation, like long working hours, even if it wasn’t their natural tendency to transmit their power that way.

[bivol]

I am curious about how one adjusts line of draft with the collar, and how you hitch to the load with it.

well, i’ve seen, though not commonly used on 3 pad collars, that one 3-pad collar had holes to adjust the hight of the hitch-point. that collar didn’t have the back-strap to go under tail, i guess the holes were used to hitch at optimum hight and cause no slipping…

the bow yoke or collar dilemma, IMO, should be seen through the actual work the cattle will be preforming. if they have lots to pull out, logs, sleds, stoneboats, or break carts on hills, than i’d always use a bow yoke, or i’d design a yoke as we used to use here, like in romania, etc…
the collar i would avoid…

if i’d have cartwork, or plowing, the collar would be the choice…

the “support structure” is also important, like saddlers, harness makers, and such. i know of one man that makes horse harnesses, and could fix me a collar, or repair it, but he lives hundreds of miles away.

maybe oxen could choose the system they like better themselves?

for example like this; when i take my cattle to yoke them with a yoke, i always lead them to the same spot in the yard, to the left of the stall door. when i harness them with a collar, i lead them to the right of the stall, when they come out. when i take them out to yoke/harness them, i always tell them the same word as command, say “hitch!”.
and after they work in both systems, i push them out instead of leading them and say the command, and see which way they like better.:cool:

i used to do this often to determine if my dog wanted to go continue walking or return home;)

though i wonder if that could teach them bed habits, like picking a harness they like, as opposed to the one better suited for work…

[bivol]

hi!

a little late to get into conv. now, but i’d like to add that old oxen working in bow yoke have that distinct low head position, cause they learned to work (many hours) in a position that pushes the neck down, cause the yoke does, when it tucks into shoulders.
so, if they push back up, they must be spending a lot of energy over the years, energy that could be spent on actual pulling of implements.

the only real drawback of the collar i see, is that one can’t hitch and fix a pole to a pair of oxen working, say, on logging, so no logging arch, unless one improvises with a padded whiters yoke, but still…

gulo, do you have any pictures of your collars? i’d like to see how the collar is fixed do it don’t slip back or front. do you use some system to fix it into place?

[bivol]

@Ixy 11364 wrote:

We don’t have zebus or brahmans or anything like that here, but we do have a small number of mini zebus, and I have dexters so I’m wondering if over time I could scale them up…?

india has draft oxen of different temperaments and body types to suit different needs: big heavy oxen for ploughing, and medium sized hot-tempered breeds for road work.
the zebu breeds imported were imported for their meat, so they were heavy plow breeds, not the road work ones.

maybe you could “toon up” the dexters, so to say, but i don’t know what you’d get. it definitelly wouldn’t work in a single generation.

a good road ox needs, in my oppinion, to be at least medium in size, long legged, not heavy boned and rugged, but slender and athletic. it should also have an at least moderately alert temperament.
so my best choice would be 2/3 jersey 1/3 holstein. they can be found and bought relatively easy, being diary breeds.
jerseyXholstein is a fine cross. cross it again with j. and you will add more alert temperament, fine bone, and a lighter frame, though still larger and stronger than jersey.
ofcourse, it would need testing, but i think it would be good.

marko

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