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Erika said one very fine word here: conveniency.

not to say working a big plot of farmland with draft animals (at least mules and horses) wouldn’t be possible, its just that these types of motive power are more convenient on smaller, family sized farms.
tractors are pretty much key-on/key-off. draft animals demand additional human labor around them – feed, brush, and or yoke 2 or four oxen – no problem! but feed, brush, yoke and clean after 20+ oxen? – umm, it’s a bit stretched! i’d opt for a john deere there. it’s not all in fuel prices – if working too many animals breaks me physically of work every day, i’ll opt for a machine.

as Carl said, monoculture is the problem.
it’ not even so much the size of farm itself – imagine you had a 500 acre farm, but with everything in it – farmlands with various crops, pastures, orchards, forests, fish ponds. then the chores would be more spread, time-wise, and draft animals would indeed be feasable, Ixy!

but in our current monoculture, they ain’t, for big farms!

Ixy, why do we need bigger farms? so the city-folk can have cheap produce, no matter what? i’ll break it down – if there are less people (and fuel) in the countryside to work in agriculture, then there is less food, food prices go up, and cities have less food. also land goes cheaper because the owner can’t work his entire huge plow and wants to sell the excess so he saves the rest when tax comes.
the re-emigration on the countryside takes place – it happened on Cuba! – and the incoming population boosts food production.
it’s balancing – and to me 80% of people living in cities is NOT a balance!

as for monks, there must have been great many monks (not to mention peasants!) working that land. you cant do that with a single family.

John, good thinking, a donkey engine would enable more efficient use of draft power! put in a Lister CS diesel, feed it waste cooking oil from a local restaurant, and that could reduce the need for animals when pulling say a harvester!

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Ixy,
i suppose they mean that on bigger farms animals, especially, oxen, would simply be too slow to do the job on time. if you have 5 acres to plow, oxen are OK but if you have 50 acres to plow? big and small are in this twxt, IMO, also defined by the ability of the animals to do the work on a farm of a certain acreage.
and by the (low) income the farm brings, that would make owning a tractor unpractical.

the so-called “economy of scale” is a mantra we are all tougth, but IMO it’s worth nothing really – it only works when there are enough fossil fuels to make the modern production and market (transport, ect.) going.
instead there should be a “human-scale” to doing things. that means applying it to see the ammont of work a human (or draft animal,s for that matter) can successfully do in a day without significant help from machines.

and just because there are draft animals in the equation instead of machines, the economy of scale don’t work in favor of animals. but “human-sized” farms do.

Dominiquer60, you’re right about press, here they’re at it too! it’s so nice to have someone on the “inside” do the writing. people who know the problematic should be writing about it more than they do now!

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…and i posted this because i (wrongly) thought something was needed to make the oxen go faster! luckily this ain’t the case it seems!

excellent, learned something today! thank y all!:D

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well, i can think of four things…

getting him used to walk there before work
maybe if you take the ox out to the field, hitch him up and tire him out a bit, and then send him down between the rows (without stopping!!) as training to walk in between the beds without stopping before you make him pull anything…

by wearing him out before he goes down the beds he’ll be less motivated to do something we dont want (like kick the beds down) and he’ll be concentrated on walking down instead.

make him accustomed to walking the entire way without stopping – so you wont have to prod him so much later on.

adjust your cultivator for depth beforehand
adjusting can mean stopping and going a number of times in furrow, which teaches the ox it’s ok to stop in furrows -> prodding => frustration.
so, if you set your cultivator somewhere else (on the field) while you’re giving him a workout, and it is already set by the time you hit the furrows, you wont have to stop the ox at all once it moves.

have a muzzle on him
ithe only other thing i can think of are muzzles, so the ox doesn’t snatch any goodies he aint supposed to…

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thank you!

was busy lately, but now it’s calmed down (for them moment).. will continue to put up stuff that might be interesting!

take care, my friend!;)

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nice one!

how are trhe oxen responding to it? are they visibly more comfortable? nice to see your skills being polished – i still have to make my first yoke (bow is here though)!

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sorry for the late reply!

KG, well ok, if you put it that way….
but having said that you have only a single acre, it seems that ox wont be lonely because you will be always around. and if you need be, get a goat to keep him company – and produce milk!

that were arguments in favor of a single ox. if your mom prefers to have a team, than try a team ,why not – just DONT treat them lightly because they’re small, they’re real cattle anmd if you pull it off right (that is, seriously) you will learn a lot.

oh, one more thing: oxen, in general, are trained and worked by the same person who feeds and takers care of them. i dont know the details, but if you were to share your cattle obligations (feeding) with someone else, i dont know what implications (if any) that might have on them listening to you.

about small oxen – if you pick zebu or dexters, they seem small but turbo in the head, and honestly i dont know if i’sd reccomend them for a first-timer… i’m sorry if this sounds a bit frightning, but if it does, all the better. this means you’ll stay on your toes and will train them right!
and if you have hickups, just fall back on info and advice here!

good luck!

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well, if plowing, logging and stump pulling are involved, you’ll need a some dexters, if were still talking small oxen (i’d prefer something medium – i know, no room!), it’s all hard work! the only job more difficult than this would be getting the logs down the mountain with oxen!

and jerseys are simply too fine boned – UNLESS! – you do crazy stuff like not castrate them till later on so they develop stronger constitution (but they’re jersey so i wouldn’t dare it without a lot of experience on oxen)

but if you cant find anything better (ewith the budget), why not just give jesreys or a cross a try?

imo, for your job a jersey X BS would be great! (if you can feed’em!)

another issue. a single ox basically uses 100% of his power to pull, while if you have a pair, each ox in yoke uses maximally 90% of his power, never 100%, effectivelly.

so, if you have a small plot, why not invest in one big ox?
the idea would be to more efiiciently use the resources – a single of can plow about 70% of the area a team can in a single day – even if it takes 30% more time.

a single ox is hinted to be a good solution for smaller farms in “oxen: a teamster’s guide”. get what is the best for you in your situation!
now, that being said, s single ox, when it falls ill, the entire team is ill… less flexibility. but energy is used more efficiently.

don’t go blindly conforming to the norm (in this case, working oxen in pairs), if a single animal might suit your needs better!

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depends on what you want. do you want a pair of oxen, or just something to do the job? in latter case a single medium ox would do. in first case, yea sometihng smaller should do.
in something smal, i’d go for
1. jersey – small, light, high-strung, but light boned. not much for heavy work. dirt-cheap calves.
2. dexters – small, heavy build, stronger than 1. case, but IMO harder to manage. more expensive to get.
3. mini zebu – i dunno, maybe they’re too mini for any serious work.

how much land are we talking about(sorry for nosing in!)? and would you want to buy feed? how many $ are you willing to spend? what kind of work do you have in mind?

these are all factors in making a decision.

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thanks Gordon, will keep at it!

Elke, the “local” solution to yoke snapping problems here was is to enforce the yoke with iron or thin steel plates where it’s most likely to snap.

like here:

and here

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anyway, it’s a spinn-off of a tile stove.

short description and building process is here. fired bricks could be used too, i think.

or, even better, 95% efficiency one?

link here. read carefully!

yes, five cords to heat a 3000 ft home. entire winter.

i’m only a bit off by them saying it’s a “russian” stove. ok, so this very design may be (i don’t know) but i do know similar stoves who work in the same way are found not only in russia, but also in what was once austria hungary (today austria, north italy, croatia, hungary…), swizerland, serbia, and reportedly scandinavia.

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we used to heat on firewood all my childhood, and i still miss it!

well, as a rule of thumb the wood should be as dry as possible, be cause then it will readily smolder with little oxigen and so most heat will be transfered to what it’s being heated instead through the chimney.
after 18 yearsc experience i can say baked clay is one of the very best materials when it comes to conserving and dispersing heat. when using firewood, this kind of oven produces the most healthy type of warmth.

other than that, you should read “the complete guide to self sufficiency” by john seymour. he had a multi-purpose oven, made of bricks and cast iron plates. anyway, he said for efficient firewood management one should have an oven capable of doing at least four things at once:

1. cooking food
2. heating the house (therefore in middle of the house)
3. heating bathing water (tank in the wall next to the oven).
4. smoking meat

he also reports they had great success in fattening pigs on potatoes because they’d just dump potatoes ijn a big couldron in the evening, and by morning of smoldering oven they’d be cooked. he said labour was minimal.

but for this the firewood should be dried at least a year, to be completely dry…

this oven above can i think be built so that the house heating can be turned off in summer, via redirecting smoke flow.
if i had a homestead, i’d consider building one!

right, everyone interested in efficient firewood use should read this. i totally support what that man had to say, had almost two decades of personal experience with this type of stove! it’ll really need a lot of convicting to make me believe there is anything nearly as good as these stoves when it comes to heating living spaces!

anyway, we had like first one of these beauties:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_3MPInjMAV1o/Rf1pbK4dZkI/AAAAAAAAJ5I/Dvww4dtJufk/DSC00018.JPG

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Portugal. a small state on atlantic side of spanish peninsula (aside from spain)

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hey Nat!

well what i like about donkeyss and oxen alike over horses is their calmness and that they dont bolt and don’t panic easily.
BUT
i think donkeys and oxen are still different in terms of willingness to work – cattle won’t work unless we push them , donkeys can and will want to work if they have a good relationship with their master…

first quote – i think it’s an important lesson when plowing laone with oxen – cattle around the world show so much “talent” for walking alone that it’s simply amazing to someone used to leading oxen only.

third quote… i don’t know… maybe oxen are happier to just be directed and told: look, do this, and nothing else, while donkeys will often ask “why” they have to do it. oxen don’t care that much as long as it’s routine and learnt task… what do you think, how’s your experience regarding?…

“The point made is this: that once a donkey is experienced he needs to be given the responsibility to to complete the work with minimal interference. It is their intellectual freedom that inspires thier physical ability”

i absolutelly looove this one:D

they’re absolutelly right about the need to let the animal have some responsibility when it masters something, and needless hanging on the subject can by right irritate it!

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unfortunatelly Vicky, i’m not coming to Tillers, that was just a pun…(unfortunatelly!)
as for you, if there is a chance that you can come, sure, do come! we’ll have a drive around the country (it aint too big:D) and we’ll see something yet! i know aproximate locations of herds of indigenous grey cattle, plus i know at least one breeder of busa and istrian cattle. and we’ll manage for other critters too!AAND i’ll have an excuse to hit the road and see all the critters myself! maybe even to Hortobagy, Hungary!
oh, if you can come, please tell me when, so it don’t collide with my traveling up north this summer! would be a real shame to visit croatia and not have a local guide to ancient breeds!

you saw nice stuff albania (oxen plowing), but i’d be afraid to go there…

poppies… one of their specialities. 😀 and they dont use them for making poppy seed cakes, too! at least not ones to eat!:rolleyes:

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