[bivol]

WHOA, NICE ONE NATALIE!

she looks so cute, that’s why cattle melt my heart!!:):):)

did you start making some sort of a pack saddle?

[bivol]

no problem, glad you enjoy!:D

hey Vicki here are some additional pics:

last oxen in some place in Bosnia, memories saved for posterity.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20625676?comment_page=1

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20625646

log pulling contest… bosnians have them, too…

[IMG]https://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2010-06-05/67746_060615s1_f.jpg?ver=1275783678[/IMG]

[IMG]https://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2010-06-05/67748_060615s3_f.jpg?ver=1275783792[/IMG]

as for those yokes, they sell em here, too, they cost about 20$…

Fabian, you’re right, the base plank can be adjusted to hight, but it’s not moving when the oxen get yoked.

[bivol]

hi everyone!

thank you for your input!
Oxnun, will check on that, thanks! p.s. an alternative name could be: volaritsa (volar =ox drover)

Charlie, busa are extremely resitant to desease, and are kept in relativelly small herds throughout the range. i wouldn’t worry about epidemiocs this much – i’m worried if the state subsidies stop -and there’s a possibility they will, there’as a chronic lack of cash for everything. this is what worries me i have to find some way so it pays off to keep them… maybe de-taxing them?
another problem people here simply wont take up farming or livestock keeping, even if they live in the countryside – too bothersome (no comment…)

John, yes, it actually was a smallholders cow (EVERYONE was a smallholder back then), and i’m wondering how to reanimate it… maybe putting all the busa keepers on one spot on the net, so anyone with interest would be able to quickly know who has what for sale.
also, free advertisment in the papers could help.

Scyther, no cattle breed i know is this modest in food consumption. and they do make good use of marginal lands. if someone would be bothered by a goat’s antics, maybe this would be good…

about export… maybe one could export semen and AI jersey cows. crosses would, with any luck, have the best of both – more milk than a busa, but still heavier and more rugged build and greater resistance than jersey.
they could well be more worth than exporting pure bred animal….

[bivol]

sorry, too late again!… later than usually 0.0

i meant bosnian horsesare really tough!

in fact, the selection process was done by making horses do a marathon race (with riders, ofcourse) of about 100 kilometers of up-and-down mountain terrain in Bosnia, and only those who made it would be kept for further breeding at the breeding center.
it’s also a no-fuss horse that will stand adverse climate, scortching sun, rain, snow drifts, and poor management and feed, and often (unfortunately) abuse.

anyway, some pics of what they (and posavians) are used for, aside from meat production:(:

every load is around 200 kg, that’s around twice a large man.
they haul out about 40-50 cubic meters of beech firewood every day.

bosnians are tought, but posavians are stronger, and well used to mountains even if they’re a swamp horse.

[bivol]

continuing on oxen:

for the yoke design, it’s really good! the foreheads are under 90 degrees to line of draft, this is optimal for head yokes.

wagons – somewhat obviously unbalanced, even if it would be plain to see the wagon could be more balanced, esp. becasue of head yokes udes.

driving – well, i’m not well of with that, mostly because oxen are newver genuinely tamed. instead, they’re beaten into submission…

[bivol]

Tim,
all the yoke designs (except the fixed angle bow design) are pretty much, at least in some areas, made with comfort in mind. if one’d try making such a yoke, making the neck seats would be the trickiest part. would have made the difference, since it was mountainous terrain.

Wolfgang, that’s true, i hadn’t thought of that before! still, this yoke actually being rather crude in terms of “fine tuning” to the size of every ox, i think they didn’t see it as a neccesity. as long as the ox pulled, it was fine…

in fact, the third type was probably used because in some situations a type 1 yoke couldn’t (like for logging)… just a guess, i dunno.

the horse wagon tongue is a fixed tongue, here people never use a drop tongue for horses.
those are original ponies from this region, mixed more or less, (IMO commoner’s horses in medieval Europe looked similar) an excellent horse, tough and modest.

[bivol]

Ixy, you pull out the outside iron bar, and push the oxen into the yoke from the sides. Fabian got a good vid showing it.

that base plank dont move. this bow has one base plank, two side planks, and two side rods.

fixed-angle yokes have additional two types, judging by the bows.
there is the second type. same thing, a nail in the middle, only with bows

third type:

found this one in slovenia and mountain croatin, and oddly enough, and in… ukraine…?!?

oxnun, thank you! i hope the article “held water”, i’m really anxious to see that the ox drivers critics will be! hope i wont be stoned!:D

LOl just found this vid, shows why one has to now to drive oxen. these guys don’t. in fact, they do more pulling on the wagon than the oxen do.

[bivol]

yer right Tim.

here (balkans) simmentals are a dual purpose breed with accent on milk production.

here are some pics of working simmental oxen in a fixed-angle yoke:

horse team

i’m glad if it’s interesting!

[bivol]

yes,

these are an all-wood design. took srtong oxen to move them any appreacable distance. these are simmenthal oxen, they’re the most used oxen breed in Serbia. generally they’re used in mountains for farm work, contractor work, and logging.
sadly this was the entire article, i dont have anything more.:(

[bivol]

there is one good thing about cuba though. they have a socialist culture, and in this culture there is an accent on public good, and on non-material stuff like forging a socialist society, and not nearly as much accent on money. if it was about money, Cuban doctors wouldn’t have stayed in Haiti for free much longer than western doctors (if they came for free at all, which i doubt).

that means money is important but not the center of society or world in cuba. not everything is measured in money, like it is in “democratic west”. friendships, family connections, neighbours, trade, and other types of personal connections ad to a healthier balance to earning for life.

america could be a bit extreme example, but i heard there are lot of “exclusive” clubs and restaurants. i can’t enter a certain restaurant.
this means people are basically voluntarily locked to their own income class. once you get fired and dont find a job, you loose not only your job, but your entire world. you move to a less expensive neighbourhood, loose club membership and contacts, everything.
this is an example of how money controls people.

here’ if one is fired you as a general rule, keep your friends, neighbours, and they will probably help you find something. it’s a different culture, without any comparable living standards, but then again, not everything is in living standards (that’s what gross happiness index is for)

[bivol]

@B Grant 25476 wrote:

Bivol, I think you hit the nail on the head when you described a model of slavery that is evident throughout Cuban culture (and agriculture!). As much as everyone says that the Cuban people are very friendly and seemingly content, the truth is that the ones I spent time with seem to be to have resigned to the fact that their lives kind of suck. There is no way ahead, and no way out. There is a lot of resentment toward the government and I presume the average population feels trapped in the same way a slave does. It is therefore no wonder that they have a lack of sensitivity toward the being over which they have domain.

As for tractors – I did see a fair number. They of course are all Belarus tractors. Mostly 1960s vintage. Big ones too! They were on the streets of towns (pulling wagons of cargo/people), as much as they were in the countryside. From what I could gather, they are used mostly on the state-run plantations and large dairy farms. The common people do not own tractors, and are instead provided with beasts of burden.

Grant, i didn’t mean current slavery, although the mental pattenr of doing things is there – cuba has no real choice, unfortunately (the whole political back-yard thing). they can either stall all poor and communist or have another Battista back. and believe me it is nicer when We all have nothing, that when We All don’t have nothing, but They wallow in cash.

i meant that they (and balkanians too, for that matter) were oppressed slaves for all of their history, so human beings develop behaviors that reflect the political reality – and this could be, for example, animal cruelty (or better, indiference to suffering).

as grandma put it: WHY do you think people must care about about animals when HUMANS live almost like animals and have it really rough?
and she’s right.

in a country where people are really poor ( be it serbia or cuba) and beaten from all sides from “life” (be it the government, foreign capital, unemployment, corruption, crime,…) they will toughen up mentally, and will not necessary be very gentle, because there is nothing gentle about their lives.

let’s face it, most of people in the world have a life that “sucks”. only question is to what extent and in which way. no future? are they poor? are they powerless? are they without future? are they all of that?

heck, we here don’t have any of that as well…. so should i sulk? do i want to sulk? no.

lol i have yet to meet a person who life doesn’t suck. it’s the worst when they steal your future and believe me, it can and does happen!

i could speak for a great many people of the World when i say westerners have a bit local outlook on things when they think it is normal to have freedom, rights, etc. – yes, it is nice and a welcome development, but common people having power over their governments is NOT a normal thing but an exception in the world!

OldKat, i think Eric meant the richest will use their influence, greed and money to profit from current economic development to make more cash. who profited the most from the economic crysis? a banker.

we are not talking about “normal” rich people who worked all their life, maybe even for a few generations, to become well off, i think he meant faceless multinational companies and banks that have long since become demonic money (and humanity) sucking systems reeking of power, death and influence.

[bivol]

welcome aboard!

congratulations on your courage to make a shift to draft horses, it takes guts.
do read older threads and dont be afraid to ask, here is the greatest concentration of working animal know-how online anywhere in the world, i think! (the most international it is sor sure!:D)

anyway, welcome!
Marko

[bivol]

but a burger is for eating, not working.
and if an animal makes a better burger than worker, it can might as well become one, so some other animal with more attitude to work gets its neck saved, and the chance to live and work. 😉

[bivol]

yes, very smart!

why pull a cow along with you? make her pull YOU!

and this also keeps them in check (no way to run from a yoked team!)

[bivol]

well, chipping in a bit too late, but…

Grant, it all depends on how the rings are used – it may or may not be abuse!
knowing cuban oxmanship ways though, it is abuse.
and there is another thing: cuba is a russian-modeled socialist society, and before that it was a backward poor wage workers (read: almost slaves for all practical purposes) country.
even if cuba got a loong way in education and health care, the country still dont have very subtle approaches to people and goals, so the same attitude extends to people and their underlings, the animals.

and cuban oxmanship practices also influence the attitude towards working animals: cubans are tought that oxen are wild, dangerous beasts that need to be FORCED and pressed into working. this is because oxen spend their youth without human contact, and when the contact is made, it is everything but pleasant and positive for oxen! so them being considered wild, dangerous beasts is at least to an extent true (humans being the ones making them this way is also true!).

John struck the point, farming is popular (for money and independence), but not everyone is cut for using animals. maybe they would profit from introducing natural farming, or some less power intensive method of farming.
on smaller plots it is well doable.

B Grant, i have a question: are there any tractors there? heard oil was flowing to Cuba again since Chavez joined “We love Fidel” fan club, so i can imagine oil (and tractors) being a bit more familiar sight again (though howing socialist practices, doubt they let ordinary private people on them).

this thread is excellent to disillusion any draft power enthusiasts who think draft power is the answer to our energy needs in the future (in fact, it is a part of solution at best). it can be applied, but better not be pressed (by need or any other way) into widespread use.

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