[Carl Russell]

Rod, you can make of it what you wish, but I have noticed that at a certain point in this enterprise we all have a tendency to fish around for solutions. Particularly near the outset, or certainly at a point when we are unsure, we all can get distracted by portions of the problem, that we CAN address.

I happened to have mentors who were, and are very pragmatic, and their comments to me were often edgy, but in the long run helped me greatly.

It can take a lot of work to understand the application of living power, to see the capabilities, and limitations. Focusing on the possible limitations of the equipment can be one of those distractions, much like flies bothering working animals, or snow-balls in the feet. All problems that seem to have finite solutions, that are easier to solve than the very intuitive and creative endeavor of working with living power.

My only intent is to make sure that as mentors we bring enough different views to the discussion that you are reminded that there is no one answer.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Neil, The point here is not to run down anything. My point is that although the truck may serve a purpose for some, it is not necessary. When considering the use of horses for work, getting distracted with whether or not a pair of Haflingers can handle a little tongue weight is just leading to a perpetual distraction. The uncertainty is being answered by something that can be understood easily, re-engineering a piece of equipment, rather than putting the animals to work. If the tongue truck is valuable on a mower, then where else are we going to put our brain power to solve an un-problem. That is my point about the harness. It had nothing to do with you, or your experience, or your working style. If a novice is concerned about uncertain capability of his horses to withstand tongue weight, I think his best investment would be to get a set of D-ring harnesses, and get to work, problem solved for every possible working situation, never have to sit down worrying out another solution to the persistent problem. Have a good day out there. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Neil, I have no need to no need to use a truck on a mower, nor does anybody else that has an appropriate harness, and learns how to use it.

I was not running down a good idea, merely pointing out the human tendency to over-think problems that have uncomplicated solutions.

Every region has customs that are different than others, which doesn’t diminish the value of either.

Your allegiance to the tongue truck is similar to my allegiance to the appropriate use of the d-ring harness.

I am merely pointing out that where the comfort, and practical application of the horse is concerned, the d-ring harness is a more versatile investment than the distraction of trying to modify a piece of equipment.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Neil, I have no doubt about your experience, but your comments are less than convincing. I can see the truck being a solution to harnesses that are poorly adjusted, or that put weight on the collar.

When the D-ring harness is adjusted correctly, it will put ALL the weight on the back pad. Hitched so that the tongue weight is entirely on the jack saddle, there is no slack in the traces, and with the belly band tight, there should be very little vibration transferred to the back, certainly not enough to cause sores.

Thousands of acres of hay land have been mowed all over the northeast without a tongue truck. They may work, but certainly are not necessary.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Those photos represent a lot of great discussion, but I am really confused about the entire enterprise of putting a tongue truck on anything that already has a pole.

A 1000 lb horse can carry 200 lbs on its back with no problem, and when split between two horses, there is no way that any mower is going to put too much pressure on a horses back. Putting so much thought into the enterprise seems to me to be distracting.

Using D-ring harness, which would be a much more cost-effective investment with more practical options for use, will solve all the problems with tongue weight.

Working animals can be as uncomplicated, or as complicated, as you make it. I opt for uncomplicated myself. There are already a lot of moving parts on a mower, I don’t think I would add another.

I hope it work out for you though. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jason and I were discussing the possibility of making some of the discussions from this site available to members of our community of interest who are not web users.

I have considered approaching SFJ, and other possibilities include a pamphlet, or some such, that we can make available at the NEAPFD, etc….

There is the chance that there may be some income associated with it that would help to offset the costs of maintaining this site, and other education/outreach activities, not to mention the time required to edit and organize the content and contributor info.

Please let me know what your thoughts are. If you do, or do not, want your thoughts published outside of this forum.

I would also like to get your preferences for particular threads that would be important to share.

Please feel free to post your responses here, or contact me personally.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Because as you stack loose hay on a rick like that it hangs over the edge, and the load is built up in a large sloping dome-shaped load. Then it can be unloaded by removing layers. With straight up sides you can’t put on as much, and the hay gets packed into the corners against the side, and it is very difficult to unload. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jason,
There is a strange energy affecting us these days. Like you, I have spent the last several decades working. Working at efforts that make me feel alive, involved with the life around me. I thrive on the coolness of early morning, the tack of pitch on my forearms, feel of sweat, and sound of soil and wind, and the smell of manure. I have invested countless hours and calories on brain power to refine my perspective, initiative, and emotional commitment to the lifestyle , skills, and techniques of animal-powered sustainable land-use. This is what I want to do more than anything else.

On the other hand, I have always been extroverted, gregarious, motivated toward helping and educating others, and invigorated by networking. More and more these days there is interest from so many sectors. It is so important to assist people in our community of interest. There are so many real and large values associated with their efforts. We need to answer the questions we can, we need to show them what we can, we need to connect them to others who can offer what we can’t. We definitely need horse and oxen loggers and farmers, but we also need support people who can assist with the education, administration, and networking.

I have potatoes to hill, logs to cut, management plans to write, T-ball and softball games to go to, horses to train, workshops to plan, and worms to drown, as do you and many others as well. I just feel both feet in different worlds. It is impossible to sell enough potatoes, or logs, or write enough man-plans or articles, to finance the 1/2 hour phone calls about draft animals, or the hours involved with pulling off workshops, or travel, etc.

What I need is a young forester who is ready to embrace ecological animal-powered forestry, a couple of administrative assistants, grant-writer, marketing specialist, and partner/associates to cover the exposure. I know you do too. I also know that we all pull these things together by the graces of incredibly capable family members and friends.

The thing is as we are encouraging people toward their interests to get real and dirty, we also need to share the reality of the cost of the responsibility. We have skills to share because we have an undying drive to practice them ourselves. I know from conversations with Lynn Miller that as he is working as an international icon of animal power, he is also thinking about the young stallion that needs his attention. All of us in this community of interest can relate, but it needs to be part of the discussion now, in earnest.

If people are motivated toward raising their own food, or working animals in the woods, or powering a dairy farm with horses, then I think that part of the equation needs to be that they be willing to share what they learn. Part of our interest has to be to share, and I know that it is, but I’m not sure that it is as upfront as it could be. Inexperienced people rightly hesitate to promote themselves as potential educators, but let’s be upfront about it, educating and networking doesn’t hill my potatoes, but it has to be part of what I do, and it has to be what we all do.

It is sad that HPD can’t see past the marketing opportunity, but that is where NEAPFD can really fill the void. We are committed to more than hooves and harnesses, as you all know. I hope that as we pull together this community that sharing truly becomes apparent. We are blessed by skilled and motivated volunteers and presenters.

The truth of it is, it all costs a lot of money. We are committed to passing around what ever wealth we can come up with, to ensure that capable people can afford to participate, while still trying to present an affordable event. A big part however is making an event that is worth going to, and that takes content, which has a price tag, as it should. It is pretty scary though when we do the math.

I would like to see this thread get some feet, because this is an important discussion. Potatoes are calling. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I haven’t got a line on a new one, but I use an older (not too old, 70’s) metal can with a 6″ nozzle and a thumb plunger. I can apply oil up and down the sickle bar without getting off the seat, as the thumb pump puts out a pretty good squirt. I also use B & C oil, or even “recycled” motor oil. Carl

[Carl Russell]

dominiquer60;1840 wrote:

……. My working dog and I travel to many different parts of the country and have a good deal of time off now and then. ……

Erika, I got to thinking, what work do you do with the dog? We are exploring ideas at NEAPFD about “other” working animals. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Greetings Erika, so good to have you here, hope you find the connections you seek (we seek). Looking forward to seeing you, and many others, in Sept. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m sure you’re all aware that Walmart has undertaken a Green Marketing Initiative. I bet it isn’t targeted at the back-to-the-landers though. The big enviros are trying to back it though, as it is supposed to advance the discussion, and open the eyes of the less informed. I’ve never heard of such a ridiculous concept. Don’t stop consuming, just consume Green!! I’ld love to see Walmart promote Reduce-Reuse-Recycle. That’ll be the day.

Hey Jason, aren’t you supposed to be putting on a large forestry demo in your neck of the woods the week before NEAPFD?

Kind of interesting that HPD is skeptical that there may not be enough turn-out. One of the best ways to make sure you have a low turn-out is to skimp on content. Unfortunately content costs, and there are few in the world of horse powered forestry with less content than you brother.

At NEAPFD we will offer three workshop tracks this year, one with round-table discussions. We are hoping to give participants the opportunity to flesh out topics, brainstorm solutions, and develop networks. Among those under consideration are Energy Drinks for Hor…. no kidding, Food Policy Issues, Farm/Community Resource/Networking Centers, and Cooperative Regional Marketing of Value-added Sustainable Forest Products (a la Draftwood). Any interest in fertilizing the latter discussion with your considerable experience would be welcome.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Andy H;1818 wrote:

What happens if the horses drink more water when they are hot?

It is not supposed to be good. Although I have never let them drink their fill, I always operate on the premise that when I’m hot and thirsty, I need to drink. It is no different with horses. 15 swallows is the most when they are “hot”, but generally an easy walk back to the barn will cool’em down enough, so that they are ready for a drink.

I did have a horse get colic once from drinking water with ice on it in the winter, but he was a horse prone to colic (died of a twisted gut)(not that time).

I prefer switchel with vinegar, maple syrup, and ginger, but never thought of feeding similar to the animals, although we do put vinegar in the water for the milk cows as part of milk fever prevention.

Only weeks after getting the young mare, having just put shoes all around, I returned to the barn to find her cast. SOMEHOW(???) she had gotten her hind foot caught on her hitch rope by the heel caulk. Having reacted negatively she has snugged the rope into the crack between shoe and hoof, and was tied up tight as a pretzel. Never was sure how long she was like that, but she wasn’t too sweaty, nor too tired, but she worked with me as I had to cut the rope from the manger first, because I could give her head with her foot still caught. (There was no pulling the rope free from under the shoe) Then I had to cut the rope between head and foot. It turned out to be one of those times when although I would never try to restrain a horse to develop submission, just by being there to release her, she regarded me in a different light. She was fine immediately, and went back to eating her hay. Never before, nor since have I had any similar problem in my tie stalls, but now at least I have it in the back of my mind.

Nice cool morning, gotta go. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I used my mare single on a mower that size. You should have NO problem pulling that with a team of Haflingers. The last thing I would ever think of doing would be to put a motor on a mowing machine. If there is any reason to cut hay with horses, it sure as heck isn’t to smell and listen to that beast.

The motor may help the novice by giving power in those situations when turning, or in thick hay, but this is an art that deserves practice, and short-cuts may look attractive, but will not advance the effort. You really should have that team functioning in good order before you attempt that chore.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

ivy;1772 wrote:

….. if god had intended animals to be worked, they wouldn’t have to be trained?

Animals are intended to work. Their lives are all about work. They are physically powerful and adept at maneuvering through inconsistent terrain. They are ambitious, responding to their needs to protect themselves and travel while carrying heavy loads (a belly full of food, a calf, their large frame).

When working animals we do not train them to do anything that they are not capable of doing already, in fact we work with their natural tendencies. What we do train them for, is the communication system, the signals and expected responses, Come-up, Gee, Haw, Whoa, Back, that we integrate into any situation to our pleasing. With this communication we can get them to do the work we want them to do for us.
Carl

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