[Carl Russell]

Jennifer,
I can appreciate the situation you are in. My perspective is shaped by access to hundreds on acres with substantial physical enterprises, so when I think of the practical application of animal power, I come at it from that place.

One of the big stumbling bocks to very small application of animal power, is the routine. Both animal and teamster need inspiration, motivation, and success to develop an approach that will work as well in the field as it looks from the road.

100 years ago many many people had at least some knowledge of working animals so there was lots of light work, like delivery, cultivation, transport, etc… But today the examples, and the knowledge base are missing. I see people who have taken on larger small farming enterprises as having the skills, knowledge, and experience, that will advance the desires that you, and others have.

Having written that, it has occurred to me that using round pens, and other skills that you already possess, you may be able to overcome this hurdle from the other direction. As I have mentioned in other threads, to me it is all about the work, but that is because I have the work. It is also because I have no experience with round pen training, nor the undertaking of very very small projects.

In terms of NEAPFD, I realize that there are many levels to our approach, and I truly try to open myself to what others can bring. I have thought about urban uses, such as trash pick-up, or taxi, etc., but I am beginning to see this topic a little clearer.

Jennifer, as you undertake this process would you think of a presentation, (possibly a panel of others in your boat, with some who have gotten to the next level, and a representation of resource people who you find yourself turning to), covering objectives, techniques, and applications? I think you would be well received. Jean, and Kristin may also want to knock heads on this. There was a post by a school teacher desiring to use a horse for commuting as well.

I think that it would be entirely appropriate that you are a beginner of sorts, because it is clear that your ambition outweighs your inexperience, and that you represent a portion of the public that I have described, who linger on the cusp because they lack the pieces that you are trying to pull together.

NEAPFD is exactly about pulling together pieces of this network to answer obscure questions, and to manifest the resources that facilitate the growth we all know we need.

Let me know what you think. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod, I have extreme chemical sensitivities so I won’t even comment on your plans, except to say that you may want to test how the animals react to the spray. I know that with aerosol or garden hoses, my animals tend to be highly suspicious, and need conditioning to accept the noise with comfort. I find that a machete works great for noxious weeds, both for chopping them down, and for digging/chopping roots.

The DR brush cutter has heavy rubber flaps in front to knock down forward-headed projectiles. Also the cart I have has a solid backing that would add better protection than an ATV, or garden tractor. The only thing holding me back is the COST!!!!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As far as lawn mowing goes, Mascot Sharpening has ground drive reel mowers that can be ganged and hitched behind any forecart, but my opinion about most lawns is they should be pastured, or get the dude the heck off the couch and buy a Sun Lawn push reel-mower.

Once in PA I watched an Amishman mowing a school yard with a single carriage horse on a forecart trailing a traditional motorized lawnmower!!!

I have been seriously considering a tag-along brush mower from DR for trimming pastures and brush-hogging. These are 13-17 hp and really well built, designed for ATV or garden tractor. I spoke with a person on the phone who was aghast that I would consider hitching it to horses,”the engineers require at least 400lbs, 14hp, and you have to stay on 5% slopes”! I couldn’t make any headway with her. Her brain hurt too much!! I may have one by this fall though, and will demo it at NEAPFD.

It is an interesting topic of Draft-animals and the Urban culture. Without getting too entertaining, we could probably put together something around small-scale/part-time uses. My only hesitation is that we truly see the urban lifestyle eroding in front of us.

We believe that the future human demand on the landscape will need to be directed by people with a deep understanding of stewardship and husbandry. These Earth-wrights will indeed need to be skilled in the craft of animal-power, but underlying that will be an understanding, and a commitment, and perhaps a surrendering to the ecological parameters that have been left out of the urban formula.

So with limited time and space, we will try to touch on some of the ways that people can move slowly into animal-power, but we will continue to focus intently on the needs of those creating the new working rural landscape.

Chore time, Carl

[Carl Russell]

As Lisa and I have been promoting the NEAPFD we have been running a display table featuring our farm, as well as last year’s event. We have met so many people on the cusp.

They have a barn with stalls, they’ve been pricing small tractors, they have a small woodlot, would like to run a garden…..etc. But most of them are so unfamiliar with animals, and particularly working animals, that we can clearly see how lost they are.

Also they are all starting from different points of interest. It is really difficult to figure out how to help them. The only thing we can do is encourage them to seriously consider it, and try to be honest about the actual difficulty in learning the craft.

For most of them, even if they wanted to start working a single animal in their garden tomorrow, it would be several years before they have the kind of experience that Kristin described.

The reality is that if we do set good practical examples then there will be more people wanting to give it a try, but there will also be many who never get off the dime, because it is really too hard for them to get out of the modern switch and key mentality.

It takes the kind of effort and thought that Rod is putting into it, and right now, most of the people who possess that kind of initiative are running more than an urban ranch.

Any rate I think the best way we can help them is to continue to gather this growing network, commit to serious and practical application, and share our inspiration.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have handled a lot of loose hay, on a small scale, but always by hand, and into the barn. I mean mowed, teddered, and raked with horses, then stacked and loaded by hand. I was never brave enough to build a stack, other than to get through a rainy spell, as I think our climate is too wet, and although I know it only spoils on the outside, I love good green hay, and I loathe rained on bleached and dusty hay, so I’ve always taken the extra effort to put it in the mow.

As far as NEAPFD, we will think about that. We were able last year to roll out some round bales which was teddered out and assumed its field character pretty reasonably. It might work. I have started trying to work out the details with a few local farmers to use some of their fields for field demos, but the grass crop at that time of year is green chop. We will be able to mow, with sickle bar and haybine, ted, rake, rotary/side, w/ GD and motorized carts, chop, but we won’t be handling hay in those fields. Let’s think about what we would need, and how it might work.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Drum….mond,……I……ca…n’t…….thank……you….enou…..gh,…..but….I……..’m…..gonna……have to go…..to……town…….to…get…..on…….a high speed…….con….ection.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I start my horses out from the get-go with blinders. I would not advise anybody against using an open bridle, I just see value in using blinders, and that is my preference. I try not to focus on physical details as having significance in the performance of the working relationship. We call it craft after-all, so we each will have our own foundation to work from. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have been thinking some more, a dangerous tendency, about blinders, focus, and communication. I rely heavily on visual communication for many things, but not when I’m working the animals in harness. As Lane, and Jennifer both mentioned above, a working horse will be keyed into visual signals from the teamster, which I feel, will be distracting to the horse, and possibly the teamster.

I am not, nor ever have been, a rider. But, I have had some interesting interface with “riders” who want to learn to work horses. There is a very body oriented relationship with riding. However, with working it is, ( To paraphrase Wendell Berry from his poem “Horses”, in the intro to The Draft Horse Primer) “Fleshing your will, through the reins”.

The work of riding is detailed around maneuvering, and is based in the seat, with a focus on the horse. The work of draft is detailed around the power of productive task, and is based in the mind, with a focus on the equipment or load,log,etc..

It may seem somewhat belittling to separate the horse from the communication by interfering with visual communication, but it is a bit like dealing with a child who can walk, but still wants to be picked up. By taking away the visual focus on the teamster, the animal is not distracted from the extremely subtle communication that is being transmitted through the leather.

I know from experience of trying to help a rider learn to work horses in the woods, that there is a learning curve specifically associated with the different perspectives. Also the other way, as I am so unaccustomed to riding that I feel no seat when on horseback.

Because of the nature of the enterprise of riding, I can see the value of an open bridle, having the horse be able to appraise the landscape etc.. But as I referred to before, working horses have plenty of ability to understand what is going on, and they need to be able to learn to trust the teamster without the pacification of visual contact.

I really see blinders as important components of a working relationship. That is not to say that I am not a Natural Horseman. I believe strongly in a solid visual and respectful relationship with my horses, but I see no disrespect in using blinders any more than I do in using any other piece of equipment.

I really believe that horses that react differently when given open bridles are not reacting as much to the “things” around them, as they are reacting to the fact the the teamster is paying attention to the work they are doing, and not to the horse. Because the teamster, by the nature of the work, is paying attention to the “things”, then horse is compelled to as well. There is no need, in my mind, that the horse be responsible for figuring out anything about the work that is being done, only that they are responsible for complete participation in the complex relationship between the teamster’s intention and their own physical power.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ve never been clear on what the benefits are to open bridles? I don’t see that blinders are actually blinding my animals to anything that goes on around them. If there is something they need to see, they can turn their head. They seem to be pretty well aware that something is back there “chasing them” anyway, just from the sound. When the school bus comes vrooming up behind them, they know that it’s a big load thing, and when it comes into view around the blinders, I’m not sure that is all that surprising to them.

On the other hand I have always seen blinders as a device to limit the perspective of the horse on where they are going, to facilitate the work, by narrowing their focus, not to shield their vision from possible threats.

Great thread. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I didn’t mean to insinuate that pigs were predators, rather that because they don’t even look or act like predators, perhaps it is the smell that may in some cases smell like what predators often smell like, and that it stimulated an instinctual response. Otherwise it just seems so out of character for any horse I’ve known. Carl

[Carl Russell]

We have always raised our pigs around the horses, and never had a problem.
In fact, the horses hang over the fence to “talk” to the pigs.

Our sow got out last month, walked right over her fenced, and scared the turkeys into the woods where three of them were killed by coyotes!!!

I mentioned your experience to Lisa and she cited a Monty Roberts newsletter where a rider was expressing concern about her gelding acting very aggressive (stallion like?) when approaching a farm where a pig was penned near the road. His response was that the horse was probably having a predator-related response. He suggested putting an aromatic substance on the horse’s nose to block the scent.

Pigs, predators???

That got me thinking that many predators will roll in the offal of a kill. Smelling like carrion and guts, they can parade their prowess around the pack. Sometimes pigs can have pretty nasty odor, even when eating only vegetarian. Also in winter the horses may have been more threatened, because of reduced mobility, or just seasonal issues. Anyway, it seems as though they had an uncontrollable response to something, and I have a hard time believing that it was just the sight of the pig.

Weird is right. I hope she tastes good!!! Carl

[Carl Russell]

Andre’,
My Ben horse was two when I started working him in harness for field work.I mowed, tedded, and raked hay with him no problem. Any heavy work like logging I would hitch the mare all the way in on the evener, or sometimes put a chain on the evener so she had the whole load.

There was a whole year that he was in harness working, but only had very light loads. I had a big pair of Holsteins then, so the heavy logging I could do with them, also plowing and harrowing.

By three he was big enough and so used to the program that he was slowly given all he wanted. I share your sense of amazement as it seemed like I never did anything to train him.

On the first load of manure the spring he turned three, as we entered the field the rear wheels hit the berm at the edge of the town road and stalled momentarily. He did a little hop, put both hinds on the ground, solid and parallel, and pushed like he’d been doing it his whole life.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Does’ Leap;1294 wrote:

……One concern I have is that if and when I have this operational, I don’t like the idea of floating around on the seat without anything to brace myself against if my boys get jumpy and need to be reigned in. My thought is to weld up something that I could at least brace my feet against if necessary. Another overall concern is that the renovation needs to be done right. I have had spreaders brake down behind a tractor. It might be a hassle, but it is not dangerous like it might be with horses. I want to be able to concentrate on safe, effective driving of my team without having to worry about a wheel falling off……

Does’ Leap;1294 wrote:

George, I have rebuilt an old manure spreader, tractor drawn that I haul behind a forecart, and it looks like you’re headed in the right direction.

I would suggest that you pay close attention to your hesitations. There are always uncertainties, and safety is only a function of the risks you are willing to take, but if there is any question in your mind that a mishap may be a catalyst for a disaster then spread with the tractor.

This does not diminish your valid concern to rebuild the spreader right. I am only urging you to keep a clear focus on two completely different factors of the enterprise.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Pick me up on your way by. If you start tomorrow we ought to be right on schedule!!!

[Carl Russell]

In defense of what John was saying about slap associated with pole height and the D-ring harness, several logging carts out there like Forest Products, and Farmer Brown’s, are designed with a very high hitch, to get the logs hitched high.This results in pole height that is too high for normal horses to be able wear the D-ring high enough to get adequate lift on the pole, and in those cases the pole WILL slap back and forth.

Another point about the D-ring and pole slap, is that if the front trace is too long then the D-ring will be too low to get adequate lift on the pole, and the hitch will not be tight.

Logging carts, as Rick says, have their greatest advantage in ease, so they should be designed to facilitate that. Getting a ladder to get up on every time, in my mind is not easy. The effect on the horse, and relation to the harnessing system is extremely important, almost more so than how high they can lift the log. Carl

[Author]

Posts