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Thanks for all the input. I will digest all this information as I wait for a couple of spring auctions. Talked to Ted Russell last night about the White Horse sulky. Very tempting, but I’m not sure the amount of plowing we will be doing justifies the expense. Erik, thanks for the offer, I will shoot you an email to coordinate a time.

George

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Kristin:

Must have missed this question back in January, sorry. Yes, this diet is considered a treatment for EPSM, but some argue that there are benefits to all horses.

George

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We put up a 40 x 70 hoop structure several years ago and have been very happy with it. It is a clear span structure with no horizontal bracing. It’s main purpose is to house our dairy goat herd, but we have also housed sheep and beef cattle as well. We also have our two drafts in it in a tie stall. It is light, well ventilated and rugged. We had 38″ of snow on in one storm last winter with no problem. We studded up the ends of the barn and used shade fabric which lets in light and air, but provides protection as well. I put the structure up in 5 days with intermittent help from friends and family.

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I have also had good results switching over to rope halters for my horses. They increase sensivity to the horse when pressure is applied and I believe are more comforatable for the horses as they are extremely light. You can also make them for a couple of bucks. Here’s a link for anyone interested in tying their own: http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/tiehalter.shtml

George

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Interesting hearing everyones’ reponses. Thanks.

Carl, I bought Parelli’s book as a result of seeing it in your library / books post. That yielding with a rope seems similar to what he does. In addition, he tries to get his horses to yield in all directions – foward, backward, right, left, up and down. Have you asked your horses to yield in other directions other than back? If so, any tips? Parelli recommends having the horse yield up close in all 6 directions and then move to a 12′ rope. I have been working up getting my horses to yield to my touch and am interested in moving on to the rope. Our horses have been in a large paddock surrounding our dairy barn which we frequent several times a day for feeding, catching babies (this time of year), etc., so we have the opportunity of interacting with them briefly as we move back and forth to the barn.

PS We moved to a straight bit dropped from the hames from a broken snaffle and horses seem to do well with the new system.

George

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My limited experience with horses and cattle in relatively small paddocks is that horses dominate over cattle and they quickly work out the pecking order. No bad experiences on this end. Again, this experience is limited and I suggest getting input from others before penning them together.

George

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Carl:

In answer to your questions, I think the equipment demonstrations should be accomplished by staff, equipment manufacturers, or teamsters who are willing to show their equipment. After the demonstration there would be a finite amount of time for a question and answer session before the next demonstration with the opportunity to continue if the spectator were willing to miss the next demonstration. This should accomplish two goals simultaneously in an efficient and timely manor:

• enable would-be teamsters and others to witness the effective use of animal power in conjunction with the latest technology in a variety of settings; and
• allow current users of animal power to do the same with the opportunity of a more in depth discussion, perhaps even try out of equipment while other demonstrations are going on.

Hope this helps. Thanks for your efforts in putting together the next field days.

George

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Thanks for sharing that, what a great project. I have been thinking about doing that since my last reading of Farmer Boy with the kids! The cheese cellar seems like the perfect place to use the cooling potential, keeps the humidity up and just melts down the floor drains. I’d love to hear how long you have ice down there this summer.

Kristan

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Carl and Jim:

Which of the books mentioned would be a good one to start with? I have a 100 acre woodlot and have taken a load out here and there for building projects and sold some but would like to be more informed in order to manage this resource better. I am planning on updating/writing my current use plan (Vermont tax break for forest and agricultural land) and would like more information.

Thanks.

George

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Plowboy:

Oddly enough it is the other horse that is more aggressive on the bit. From the picture, it looks like the opposite. Are all Belgian / Percheron crosses bays or do they vary in color? How common is the cross?

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Plowboy, is that your corn you’re feeding? I forgot to mention that each horse also gets approximately 1 bale of first cut grass hay daily.

George

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thanks again for all the great feedback we have had. A lot of it is so loaded with thoughtful information we get more out of it going back and reading again….and we talked today that maybe our lazy-bum horse is causing more problems than we first thought..anyway we had another good day out today and we are thus far leaving the twisted snaffle on the mantle piece. I’ll let you know how saturday goes..if anyone can make it up here we’d love to have you!

Also -I am interested in Don’s comments on doing more ground skidding..we have stuck to the cart because it seems we can focus more mental energy on the lines instead of walking, footing, log…so I was surprised at the suggestion of being on the ground to help with our hands, are there other reasons other than our walking pace that make you think it would be a better place to be working?

Kristan

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Hi, this is kristan here, the other half of George.
I want to thank everyone again for all this really great information -it is so helpful to us. This forum has been such a great resource for us. I will try to post on the mentoring thread as well because that also seems very important but I just wanted to give a little more information on the bitting question.

We’ve had these geldings about 3 mos and have used them quite a bit (4-5x a week) They are lovely quiet animals and just a world apart from a team of mares we had on trial that were just way too much for us. They were bought at auction in midwest and we bought them from a dealer here, who puts a twisted snaffle on everything that comes through -the dealer in no way indicated that they needed anything but the softest bits.

We have realized that we may have done too much too fast with this team (they have never worked single or in woods). We started doing both after having them a month and in general all went very well. The problem horse became slightly more amped up and agitated during this process but we attributed it to the change and tried to work through it. We worked as this for a week or two before we really recognized that he was experiencing pain in his mouth from canine emergence. We’ve consulted with several vets and apparently this is not uncommon and can last 2-3 mos, we now are using bute when we use him and that seems to be helping, but I still sense some discomfort. this is pain that is apparent when he is in and out of harness and does not seem affected by bit.

So..we took several steps backwards thinking we had done some damage jsut having a few weeks work in harness in this agitated state. He had become more unresponsive during this time, tougher to stop, surging off on his own, even difficult to turn left. We have sense gone back to very familiar territory, only working with cart as a team, trying to accumulate some calm comfortable experiences, which we have done. Yesterday we went back to the logging arch for the first time and we couldn’t have asked for them to be better. However ground driving back to the barn on icy drive got a little dicy as Don started with jigging routine. This to me does not seem very unusual to me as horse behavoir and we went up and down the driveway several times until he could approach the gate at a walk. This is where we again had the conversation about the bit and is he respecting it, the conditions weren’t great since it is tough to get any leverage when your feet are slipping, but I never felt like he would get away from me.

So, as a total novice I pretty much don’t feel qualified to make the switch, since there are so many other weak links on the human side of the equation, but the point was made earlier that if a more aggressive bit will save you from a runaway it has prevented so much more damage.

We are feeling very fortunate that Fair Winds Farm is holding their winter gathering here next weekend (sat 16th) and I’m looking forward to have some experienced teamsters assess the situation first hand.

thanks again
Kristan

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Thanks to all for taking the time to consider and respond to my situation here. I have used a buck back rope with a mare attached to her halter with some success. This was our first team of percherons who “broke” us instead of vice versa. The three month experience we had with these mares as completely green, aspiring teamsters has made me appreciate what we have in our new team of perch/belg crosses. It is this appreciation that really drives me to try to do right by these horses and consider all options. This problem is so comparatively small to what we faced previously, but is still a problem (opportunity?) nonetheless. Most of the work we have been doing this winter is logging with a Forrest forecart and hauling blocked wood with a forecart and wagon. Most of the problems, tend to be after unhitching from the implement and ground driving back to and around (which often means several laps until he settles down) the barn. So the buck back rope would not be applicable in this instance. If he persists lurching into the load, which he does occasionally, I will certainly try the buck back.

One of the things I struggle with that is difficult to correct is the trotting and jogging in place, which can lead to trotting forward. Do others tolerate this if the horse is not moving forward and if not what is the proper correction given that his teammate will also feel a line correction equally and unfairly if he is even with his jogging comrade?

Don, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on logging and preparation. I was taught to use the tightening of the lines as the primary preparation followed by the command to go. This same horse tends to think that tightening of the lines means “go”. This results in start / stop routine until he stands on my signal to go – a routine, which I imagine, might increase his agitation and propensity to want to pull hard at the start. For now, I have been gathering and getting him to go almost simultaneously. I feel I don’t want to overwhelm him with working on too many issues at once, but this is something I ultimately want to address.

On the bright side, these boys were never used for logging and have taken to it remarkably well – moving well in tight places, stepping over and maneuvering through branches and other obstacles, and standing like rocks while being hitched.

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Carl:

Thanks for the reply. Here are a couple of follow up questions:

How far down do you drop the rings from your hames to support your lines? Do you also use a breeching ring to support the lines (I believe Les Barden does this)?

Conceptually, I get the light hands on a hard horse. However, when my horse starts trotting, light hands lead to more trotting which leads to……
I am light on the lines most of the time, but when this horse in particular starts trotting, it is the only thing I can do to get him to walk. What would you do in this situation?

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