[Donn Hewes]

Carl, Nice work and fascinating stuff, isn’t? I think there are some trick dynamics going on here. I think Mitch hit it on the head with the relationship between toe two mares. In my experience this can make them hard to drive together initially. I have a few questions from your description of the day and they are not judgments at all but just curiosity. And maybe a few comments or suggestions.

First, when you brought them out and tied them to the trailer and the mare “pinned” you, was has tied next to, or near her Mom? realize that what I say next is easily said and not always easily done, it won’t be done perfectly by any of us every time, but when an animal starts to invade your space like that you need to fight back with the first step and not allow her to put you in that position. Examples: was there ample room for you on that side of the horse when you went in? Folks will try to squeeze because they don’t want to ask the horse to move, or don’t know how to ask the horse to move over. You you are along side of the horse and in no way pinned, any half step, sway or but moving my way is an unwanted invasion from her will be met with a finger, thumb nail, four fingers, knee, something direct and to the point aim into a flank, hip leg, with some controlled energy, get the “f” off of me.

The reason I ask about where the other horse was is, was she tied on the other side?

A small round pen with obstacles is very difficult. It sounds to me that this horse will link up very easily and this is a good thing. Don’t keep demonstrating this fact to yourself.

When she was trotting around the pen you commented on how little pressure it took to make her move. Could you have used less pressure and had her walking? How would this have changed the dynamic?

Getting everything out of the pen is the most important part. I will suggest that with a rope halter and a lead rope she can come out of there that day. be asked to move around you. Be asked to stand while you move around her. Pick up her feet.

I mentioned the thing above about the horse pinning you for another reason. Lenny mentioned a pair of pliers for a horse that bites. I see some flaws in that response? If a child was going to bite you what are some of the thing that we might do? First, see it coming; if this is not the first time I know I will. Second address their open moth head with my hand in a way to protect myself and send a message I will not tolerate this behavior. Right on their chin, right then, hopefully without getting bit. How would I use pliers? If they are in my pocket I would have to get them out. Now in that time did I get bit? Am I really going to bite them back? My point is timing is everything. Anyone that keeps getting bit (or kicked) by the same horse doesn’t need to increase the strength of their response, but improve the timing.

I once had a friend who asked me to look at the younger, newer horse (gelding) being teamed with the older “solid” mare. My friend was so frustrated – the younger horse didn’t want to lead, didn’t want to pull, didn’t want to turn in certain directions; etc. I got that mare so pissed at me that day, because she had been running the whole show. You will slow down, you will keep you head in your lane while turning, you will not rush through the turn. you will start together with everyone else. A little line adjustment and bitting down of the mare and these two worked great together. My friend had miss read where her problems where. I find this is common for the “horse behind”.

[Donn Hewes]

Michael, That sounds like a good collection of equipment. Just out of curiosity, what types and numbers of animals are you grazing? Will you still feed hay in the winter, or are you planning to stock pile forage? How else are you planning to adjust your grazing plans? Any clipping? Just interested.

[Donn Hewes]

George, Interesting comment about the “poly wire” pen. I have always talked about the limitations and drawbacks of a round pens (as well as the potential uses and benefits). I have usually not had one which was another reason I have learned to work with out one. Some of you may remember “Bob” the mule attempting to go over the pen at the field days. While he ended up having a very positive experience with Neal and Beka; that moment showed one of the limitations a metal portable round pen. Not much of a mental barrier if the animal decides they want out and there wasn’t much (any?) pressure on him at the moment.

I have had one of these pens at home for the last year as we used it to corral some cattle and other purposes. About two or three weeks ago we set it up to see what “Pete” would do in there. His reaction was much like Bobs; only with a bigger, stronger mule he almost cleared it, messed up a panel (like Bob) and ended up on his head, neck, and shoulder before standing up on the outside. “what’s up?”

Needless to say I won’t be doing that again for a while. I took me a few minutes to decide what to do next. I had also set up an apx. 200 foot diameter round paddock with lots of tread-in posts and thick poly wire. I had a few obstacles in it. A plastic barrel, stone boat, forecart, big tire, small logs. Clearly if Pete wanted to return to his group from here he could have, but the larger size, helped contribute to his ability to choose to stay. In this pen in the following couple weeks I was able to: work him loose, making him move and stand. Work at lunging with a rope halter to regain some yielding of the head from him. Harness him standing loose in the middle. When I first dropped a tug and attached a long chain he attempted to bolt (which is were I had been stuck for the last month), I was able to keep up with him, steer him around the large paddock and bring him back to a walk. Step one! Obviously because he had gotten away a few times, it was going to take a few times (many?!) with him repeating this attempt and finding me going with him and controlling him before he would stop. This large poly pen has given us just enough restraint as well as freedom to work in.

Could this have back fired? Easily. There were a couple times when I thought he was going through the fence and that would have made a bigger mess than if I had just kept working him near the barn. Just clipping a tread-in post while moving too fast around the paddock could have done that as well.

The first time working in this pen he was dragging the poles, and was driven out of the pen for a long drive with nothing behind him or on the ground. This is where I used no hames rings to give myself a lot of leverage should I need it. The next time we were in the pen, or round paddock, he pulled the two poles out and went for a good while in a clear open field but I was very careful where I went and which way I pointed him.

After a week of jury duty, yesterday I decided to hitch him with his mother, (the only horse I have right now) and give him something that would be both new and also possibly comforting. They went into the round paddock and pulled the poles. At the first hook, he tried to jump pretty good, but as before the paddock was a small aid in me keeping him at a walk and helping him quickly relax. One big difference between this time and the one before was that by himself after hooking to the logs once it was hard to get him near them to hook again. By his nature he stands exceptional well for a young animal and with his mother we were able to hook, drag, do a few figure eights, unhook and come back and hook again. he was much more relaxed, but still threw in a few random attempts to “be out of there”. He is slowly figuring out that that has been taken away. They finished by dragging the poles through the field for a while. I will work single again next and perhaps continue to switch back and forth. This week I think he will be pulling a stone boat I can get on.

Short answer, I have used poly paddocks of different sizes for training before, and will in the future. PS. one slightly used portable round pen for sale – cheap!

[Donn Hewes]

People think these animals aren’t very smart; but then how do you explain the young mule getting me signed up for jury duty on the nicest week of fall weather! That is OK; Just like a mule I will spend the week plotting and scheming, while he is napping in the sun.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl. Sorry to hear the struggle continues. I think we spoke on the phone recently? I can’t add much to that but I might summarize it this way. Make yourself safe, make yourself feel safe; make the horse safe; make the horse feel safe. Start to ask things of the horse in situations where you know how to get the thigh you have asked for. I know this sounds overly simplistic, but let me try to make an example (others may not agree with). I am not sure I understand the hay in the stall thing, but if I do the horse is tied by the head, and you walk into the stall from behind with an arm of load of hay. This seems so simple and it should be easy, no one wants to give up this simple thing; but the reality is you don’t feel safe (and may not be), and the horse tied by the head may not feel safe (certainly feels something – not sure what).

I am not going to suggest what you should do now, beyond what I have said above. I think the above suggestions may require that you look at all the current situations and interactions with a new perspective.

It is so easy for any of us to fall into a situation where we say, “But, this should have worked!” or “this worked before”. I am working with a young mule today that has caused me to go “backward”. Bummer for me but is it really backward? I can reconsider anything I choose as I proceed. No great answers unfortunately. feel free to give me a call. D

[Donn Hewes]

I have recently taken to saying “what we are teaching the horses and mules is simple”. By this I mean not complicated; I don’t mean to imply it will be easy as it might be easy and it might be hard. For an animal as smart as most horses and mules are; figuring out left is left and right is right, and go and stop is not difficult. What they need from people is the knowledge that they are safe, and we know where we are going (what we are doing). Teaching a beginning teamster how to convey THAT is a lot more than how to put on lines, or hook to a vehicle.

This is why I am more interested in training teamsters than animals. I really enjoy starting animals or working with green animals, because I am learning about horses and mules while I am doing that. I don’t go out of my way “train” animals for other people. I guess I really don’t believe in it. I think it would be like me teaching your kids table manors. I see lots of problems with that. First of all, I lick my plate every day after breakfast. I am not going to lie to your kids!

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Will, That is a great question, and I think related to the topic above. My horses and mules have always been handled by many, many people; both beginners and other teamsters. even in training a youngster (horse or mule) I will let someone try as long as I think I can control their safety. I think this works for me in part because I focus on what Carl would call communication versus commands. In this way my horses and mules just need to hear me coming to step into the communication / trust / relationship we have. I know many folks have felt this lost through sharing their animals with other people. It just hasn’t worked out that way for me. My “rules” in a barn are so simple that it would be almost impossible for someone else to come in there and mess them up for me. But then I may have to remind folks that if you stick your fingers in their mouths they might bite you; and don’t be afraid to ask horses or mules to move, don’t walk around them. etc.

training other peoples horses certainly falls in another category.

Most of the other folks driving my horses are there to learn so of course they are learning my ideas about pressure, contact, and communication through the lines; but this is not always true. At the field days, as well as being driven by many beginners, my horses were also driven by Jay, Daniel, Michael, Tommy, and at least one Amishmen. With an experienced teamster; they don’t pick up a set of lines with a preconceived notion that the lines must be tight or loose. They ask the team to go and then give them the pressure and guidance they need (communicate) to go where and when the teamster hoped to go. They won’t hurt your horses if they know what they are doing, and if they don’t, teach!

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by Donn Hewes.

[Donn Hewes]

I agree Will, but it can be tricky to teach; just as Carl eludes to. it is based a lot less on rules, and a lot more on our power of observation, and our ability to respond to what we see and hear from the animals we are working with.

I love the analogy of young children and use it often even though it is occasionally pointed out that I have never in fact had any kids of my own! For me the power of that analogy is in both describing who I think they are (horses and mules are like 6 y/o children) and how I would hope to interact with them. Simple, direct, caring, leadership.

Had a great day with Pete today, as I was finally able to untye myself from some preconceived notions and find a few things that worked for him. Part of what worked was thinking not about Pete, but in teaching Gillian and Mark (two folks working with me today) about what I was doing. This took a little focus off of Pete, and gave him moments to relax. I was teaching Gillian how to use her body position and body language to move the mule, and we did this today with just our hands and feet, then a rope halter and rope, and finally with a bridle and bit. But the point of it all was that even when we moved up to the bridle and bit we where still aware of how our body position and language could move the animal. At first the lines didn’t go through any hames rings.

At 4 pm I drove him on a very long walk all over the farm and woods.

[Donn Hewes]

Interestingly, I have been challenged greatly this last month with a 2 1/2 y/o mule. I do try and do some “training” as I put a new comer to work. I value using work as training because the animals do respond so well to our initiative and involving them in something beyond themselves. But you still need a few safe, logical baby steps to put the young animal to work. Pete, who you didn’t meet at the Field Days; is right at the cusp where this takes place. It is fun, interesting and frustrating all at the same time.

About a month ago he was pulling a pair of small poles around. I should have moved him to something a little bigger and heavier, but before I did he started taking these poles back to the barn on his own. Since then I have been trying different things to get back where I was with him. In some sense the problem I have had in the last month is lost initiative. Fortunately I am the kind of person that is not overly disappointed by this. I am learning from him, and trying different things each time we get together.

To make long story short, he is reminding me of the value of work in training.

[Donn Hewes]

That sounds like a fun book. I will have to look and see if I can find it. I have never felt a need for “unnecessary” rules. I have always joked that mules don’t tolerate unecessary rules well! Of course what is necessary is very much in the eye of the beholder (beholder – one who holds the rope). My personal space from horses and mules would appear very relaxed and casual to many folks, but it is very clear to me and my animals where our boundaries are. Eating in harness can be a huge problem. Not much can be done about nibbling a branch in front of the face, but for me putting a head down to eat grass in harness is something I hate to see.

Side note: two Amish horses ( with a forecart) showed up in front of my barn today! My wife felt the young boys must be around some where, but nope; this team had left them in the wood lot across the street and run up my drive way and stopped at the barn. Lucky for all concerned.

[Donn Hewes]

Yes, the whole PTO shaft pivots and that tightens the belts. This was fabricated in an Amish shop and has worked really well. getting pulley sizes right would be really important with a cart like this. I would start with the output shaft speed of the motor at a decent working RPM. The figure out pulley sizes from there to get the desired pto speed.

Here are a couple photos of my new cart before it is finished. It is painted and ready for a tongue, floor, and evener (wheels!) It has grabs on each side for chain hooks, and a draw bar will drop in the center. A seat can be added when it is not being used for logging. The real goal is a dump cart that will be added just above the frame. Still working out the details of that.

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[Donn Hewes]

I have been thinking about this a lot of course! I am just starting to drive a two year old mule that is pushing 17 HH! I will work him lightly this winter with logs and snow plowing and such, but not sure about next summer, I suspect he will make a full pull, but I will decide as I go. This summer Lee was three (fall foaling though) and she did raking and tedding but no mowing or baling. In my set up those are the harder jobs. I believe next year she will be ready for anything. Many folks wait to start their training until they feel they are ready for work. I can see why from a time management point of view, but for me it is nice to have six months of work like logging fire wood or something where you can afford the time to let them learn a little and work into bigger jobs. Two and half sort of allows for this.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Mitch, What do you think of the idea of hay “in it’s prime”? I am sure hay at it’s best was the same 100 years ago, but I think perhaps the farmers expectation of always harvesting it that way has probably changed. Before there was reliable weather forecasting, working with draft animals you where likely to still be making first cutting long after it was mature. Adding more cuttings was also another way of industrializing the process where more would be taken from the land and more (often chemical fertilizer) would need to be put back. It seems to me that much of this push came from conventional agriculture and trying to get the most of of every piece of land and animal, but after so many years we have all sort of absorbed their lingo of how hay “should be made”. It seems to me that in making hay with horses we might want to look for more ways to make the system flexible and adaptable to the available weather, fertility, our time and our horses.

Some ways that I can see to do this are; raising a group of animals that survive well on the late first cutting (horses, dry cattle, sheep); and make good use of the precious second cutting that we are fortunate to get (late gestation). Adding grazing to hay lands to help manage the growth; grazing some before haying, and some after. Create a group of animals on the farm that are intended for mid summer slaughter. I am thinking about doing this with a group of over wintered lambs. They can eat first cutting hay in the winter, (using up the excess); then help control the spring flush, then off to the butcher in time to let a good crop of hay grow; that might mature just when the weather is good enough to make hay. Just brain storming, but fun stuff to think about. How did they make hay 100 years ago?

[Donn Hewes]

If the weather was good, you could make some awesome hay by hand in a wet meadow; I just wouldn’t want to make to much of it! If you move it from the most wet spots, you could even haul it out with a wagon or stone boat.

We use electra net (from Premier) very successfully with sheep. The secret is to have the biggest and best solar charger you can as nets ground out much more than other fences. Some folks don’t like nets as hard to work with and set up well, and keep animals in. A lot of that is technique, knowing how to stretch them out in straight lines and give slight tug so they are a little tight helps keep animals out of them. Picking them up is just learning to pull all the posts with points away, and rolling them up and tieing them. Their are of course easier to use with a good perimeter fence, but we graze 20 acres every year acroos the street with no perimeter fence and no problems.

Of course one key to grazing anything is being sure to give it a reason to stay in! Our dairy sheep are moved twice a day, and our lambs get a new “break”, or fresh pasture, every day.

Leaving hoof prints in hay making is definitely getting into the judgment area. I certainly left hoof prints (2 – 3″ deep is more than a print) in a few areas this year. I start questioning myself and looking for ways around as soon as I do. Tire ruts are worse and should definitely be an indicator to go around.

[Donn Hewes]

Wet ground can mean different things! If it is raining and the ground is wet no machine or animal should be there. If it stops raining and the ground stays wet, you need to judge when hoofs are pugging, or tires are leaving ruts or marks. I have lots of wet areas on our farm. It is all pourly drained soil. I have been experimenting with grazing (sheep are much lighter than horses or cattle) and then making good hay later in the summer. It is also true that draft animals and their equipment can make hay with a little less impact that tractors. It is only slightly less if you still plan to pull a baler and wagon with bales. Loose hay equipment is lighter. One more thing to remember is all hay equipment pulls harder (for the horses) when pulling across soft ground. In the case of wagons, and such; this can be significant.

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