[Donn Hewes]

One thing about steel pipe shafts is you could custom bend them. A little curve down and away at the front might be nice. Also the back end of the shafts could come up before coming forward so it would hit the horse higher on the hind end. Not sure how important that is as most don’t seem to have that curve. I don’t know enough about the use shafts to have a strong opinion about the video, but where the shafts attach seems almost a handle. Perhaps that can’t come off anyway? It was nice to watch the horse stand and wait. She was clearly conscious of her lines and the horses attention on her. very patient and methodical.

[Donn Hewes]

Thanks Erika, That is a nice set up. Jay, I assume your shaft were not bent or curved, just angle the brackets to create the desired spacing?

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, “Dragging weight is different than lifting weight, so even though you could get away with an evener lower than the hitch point for light work, with heavy logs, and the shorter fulcrum, you will get pole lift.”

Where you say you will get pole lift, I would say it depends. That was the point I was making, don’t put more down pressure on the system than you need. Moving the working chain closer to the spindles is just as effective at reducing pole lift as raising the evener, and they don’t have to be straight across from each other to both be working together.

A drawbar is a very good example of this. Keep a drawbar short and close to the axle or spindles and you can put hundreds of pounds on it with out lifting a tongue. For each few inches longer the drawbar the less weight it can support with out tongue lift.

On the piggyback arch the tongue and evener are set up at the level of the hooks, but because the hooks are back behind the axle there is still the a little tendency for tongue lift sometimes. At least I think that is what Mark said.

[Donn Hewes]

A couple days ago I dropped two big ash trees in the hope that good skidding weather was coming. I definitely wanted to use snow as these are 30″ or better, and a ways to go. I started to limb them but didn’t finish bucking them up, as it was time for chores. As I was walking back to the barn I started thinking of all the branches and poles I can throw under them before I buck the logs up. I know this is really simple and basic, but not getting in the woods much I was glad I thought of it before my log where flat on the ground.

[Donn Hewes]

Jared, Not sure how you are putting pictures on your computer (and I am no tech guy!), but one thing you can try is reducing the file size? On my computer I use picasa3. when I want to down load a picture the first thing I do is “export” it to it’s own folder. This makes it easy to find, and give me the choice of what resolution to save it at. I am planning to make another one next winter, too.

I just dropped a couple big trees, so it will get a good test soon, D

[Donn Hewes]

Josh and Jared, “If the evener is below the hooks the log and horses will be spinning the axle in the same direction, and lifting the pole. Points level to and higher than the hooks will turn the axle opposite the log, lifting it.”
I don’t think that is exactly right. If the line of draft (imaginary line that continues back from tugs and evener) is under the axle (or spindles) it is lifting the tongue higher(an example of this would be mower evener brackets that hang down and are designed to create lift). If the tug line goes over the spindles like on most log carts, it is helping hold the tongue down. The higher you place it the more it holds the tongue down. My point is it may not need to be as high as the hooks to hold the tongue down as needed. As far as log hook placement relates to tongue lift; if the tightened log chain passes over the axle / spindles (imaginary line between spindles) it is lifting the tongue. The closer to the spindles the less lift it will cause. That is why moving the hooks forward (not too much) will reduce the tongue lift and moving the hooks behind the axle will cause more tongue lift. Taller carts also usually move the line of the chain from the spindles and increase the lift on the tongue. These are all moving parts. If your log hooks don’t cause too much tongue lift you don’t need to place the eveners so high to counter balance it.

On my new cart both the evener placement and hooks are causing some tongue lift, but still not enough to reduce all the tongue weight built into the cart. I am tempted to move my evener up about 4″ just to make it so they aren’t adding lift (this would still be several inches below the pole). Depending on where Jared’s hooks are he may not need to put the evener on top of the pole.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by Donn Hewes.

[Donn Hewes]

Brad, That is a great program. We will make sure it is listed on our Community events calendar. Hoof care training can be hard find for a beginning teamster. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, One question on pole height. I assume you are talking about the front end being “high” or “low”. ie. We want it high, but the wrong geometry can make it hard to hook. I think the Barden Cart started a trend of lifting the rear end of the tongue where it is attached to the rest of the cart. It seems to me this should make no difference on our ability to raise or lower the tip of the tongue (or hook up). Just want to make sure I am not missing something. My tongue weight is probably similar to yours. A wheel chock is a good idea. I might just place a little row of logs where I want to keep some equipment. Everything would be lined up so nice!

Along with measuring the tongue weight of different carts another thing that would be interesting to measure for D ring users would be the angle at the D ring. All the things you talk about go into trying to make that angle, (between rear trace and front side strap) as small as possible.

Hi Mark, you are right the “flat” angle can be hard for folks to see. One of the things we learn from rigging anchors for rope rescue is that when interior angles of an anchor become greater, the forces exerted on the rigging increase. This happens with the D ring harness as well. In rigging an anchor it is possible to put more weight (force) on the parts of your anchor than you have on the end of the rope. For a D ring harness this would mean two or more parts of your harness are pulling on each other and it could be more than the weight the horses feel on the their backs. This won’t hurt the horses, but is causing increased risk of rigging failure and why it can be so hard to hook up. The flat angle that Carl is refering to is when the rear trace and the front side strap start to approach flat (almost 180 degrees), for ease of hooking and to reduce strain on our equipment we want this angle to be as low as possible. Could we get down to 135? I don’t know, but it would be great if we could. After that point the forces are likely greater on the parts of the harness (pulling against it self) than the total weight on the jack saddle. One thing that benefits the harness is that we spread this load out over eight parts of a team hitch.

Yesterday, Josh and I were moving some logs across a large field to the road to help some Amish neighbors. With the whipping wind, chainsaws, and other horses working nearby my young mule was a little antsy; It was nice to not get off the cart while unhooking a log. Once the chain is free from the side grab I can reach over and unhook from the log and drive away. fast and easy.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Donn Hewes.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Donn Hewes.

[Donn Hewes]

I think this maybe obvious as we sort of explained, but as you look at the Amish (or Bailey) rebuilt mower you will see half the cone nuts right side up (on top of the hold downs) and half are up side down (on the cutter bar). Just a tip for putting it all together.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, I would agree with you that the D ring makes the tongue weight no issue for the working animals. A couple years a go I had a new cart for three head and before I finished modifying the balance it was impossible to hook up by your self. With the help of someone lifting hard on two poles you could get the horses hooked. Once working, there was NO sign the tongue weigh was effecting them at all. My problem with tongue weight is just in getting hooked up. My new cart today is just a bit of a pain to hook to. I can do it and much of that is technique, but I can also tell when a cart is just a little harder than it should be. If you are struggling to hook the first tug something is wrong. I will weight the tongue weight one of these days and then I will try to get a few others to do the same. I am not sure how the high tongue placement or low evener are contributing to the tongue weight or roll back, but mostly I just think it is a little to much tongue weight. This spring I might experiment with moving the spindles forward a tiny bit.

While my cart is not a Barden cart, I took a lot from there. I can’t imagine having tall log arch that you need to climb up on. Thanks Les.

[Donn Hewes]

I think the ideas are good. That is the beauty of making your own stuff. I have never had a cart with the storage space but I can see how important that could be to working in some situations. The cart plans call for 1 1/2 by 3/16 tubing I think. This would be a small weight savings over mine. That cart is slightly shorter in the foot tread area. That too would reduce tongue weight by a little. So far the only thing I am not 100% thrilled with on my cart is the tongue weight. Soon I will test the tongue with a bathroom scale, and see what it’s weight with and with out a person. Also with the dump cart on. Then I might set it up on jack stands and see if I can change it much by moving the spindles forward 2″, 4″, etc. I thought it handled logs great the other day. Used the new bigger sides on the dump cart today with a new latch, and they worked great.

[Donn Hewes]

My bad, I think there are quite a few folks, including Carl Russell, who have used the cart a lot. Carl has never felt a need for that extra lift I don’t think. It will be interesting to see if Carl joins in.

[Donn Hewes]

As far as weight on the tongue goes: this system revolves around the center of the wheel. Whether the tightened chain passes under or over the imaginary line through the center of the wheels determines if you are lifting the tongue or pulling down on it. Most log carts create varying degrees of lift on the tongue. In most cases this doesn’t offset the carts natural tongue weight, but in some cases it can. When you move forward you also lose the seat!

One of the things I would do now, and still might do for my new cart is add the axles last in order to help balance the cart as best I can. My friend Ken Gies just made new cart where he welded the new spindles in a long piece of square stock and clamped it in place. Once was adjusted right where he wanted it, (forward, back, plumb, square) he welded it to the frame and cut out the long piece from the center. This would work good for me.

[Donn Hewes]

Master Equipment, or almost any Amish Mower shop or parts supply will have the 7/16 cone nuts. They are what everyone is using. That will keep all the nuts on top. Years ago the Hold downs where beveled to except the bolt and then all the bolts would be top to bottom. I think this was a pain when they came loose or fell out, but it did leave a cleaner bar top where cutting passes over.

[Donn Hewes]

That is pretty impressive working alone with a single horse. It looks great there. If the skids where longer a boat or scoot that would carry 4′ or 6′ pieces might be something to try (it would cost them more!). Nice work.

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