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Good to know Sean, thank you very much. I’m going to have to talk to my accountant about this, we are not solely a breeding farm.

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There are transponders in collars that open pet doors for houses but I played around with the idea of a magnet in a collar to slide a catch bar and when the force is no longer pushing on the metal it slides back. Like a passive locking mechanism and it takes an active force to move it. When the gate closes it stays shut. It would take a couple rare earth magnets to produce the force needed and then train the dog to push the gate in one spot. I never built it, too many irons in the fire, I played around with the idea in my head. If you find it plausible and want a good magnets http://www.kjmagnetics.com/ have a huge selection at great prices.

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You need to make a profit 2 years out of 7 when farming/agriculture otherwise red flags go up and your chances of an audit sky rocket. If you make a profit every third year you are covered. Make sure you keep track of your depreciation claims, they can add up quickly. It was hard for us to show a profit this last year. Hay prices went way up, horse prices went way down and we still had some mares that had not finished depreciating yet. Essentially any money you spend on material or equipment for the farm can be written off including mileage if it’s related to the work. The more you are claiming though the larger a loss you take unless you made a lot of money.

The biggest expenses can have the deduction split up over 3 years, the rest will be applied the year they were spent. Sit down and really run the numbers of what you need to buy and how much it will cost and what your production will be and a low ball estimate of your pre-tax net income from it. This will give you an idea if you will make it or not. If you will be losing money every year they call it a hobby, a business makes more money than it spends 2 out of 5 years and Ag. is 2 out of 7 years. I believe you have to keep documentation (receipts mainly) for anything you claim for 3 years.

http://ruraltax.org/

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Billy, I included it as a link in the text itself. It makes the text a blue color in the post. There are two separate sections of text in my previous post that you can click on. Each goes to a different picture. The exact words to look for are: “point of shoulder.” “Grey is talking about.”

I guess you answered my question too. From now on I will just put website links in text and photos in thumbnails.

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Here is a picture with shafts closer to the point of the shoulder. It’s closer than it looks, he has a very thick winter coat. Carl go ahead and correct me if I am wrong.

Here is a picture of something similar to or exactly what Grey is talking about. Just behind his shoulder there are two loops. One closest to his arm that goes down towards his belly (wrap strap) and the one behind that goes up towards his back pad where it is connected. My belly band happens to have a loop of leather that wrap strap was run through (like a belt loop) so that it is secured to the belly band. This way there are not two straps in contact with my horses stomach.

I have it sitting here on the floor next to me if you want a picture of it, I still need to get it repaired.
Does everyone prefer a link to the photo or the thumbnail in the post?

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OK, so this is what I hate and love, it’s an “it depends” situation. This is directly from the document that determines the GAP protocol: “Growers should determine whether surrounding fields and farms are used for animal production. Growers may need to consider measures to ensure that animal waste from adjacent fields or waste storage facilities does not contaminate the produce production areas during heavy rains, especially if fresh produce is grown in low-lying fields or orchards. Measures might include physical barriers, such as ditches, mounds, grass/sod waterways, diversion berms, and vegetative buffer areas.” 3.0 Animal Feces

This from an analysis on safe practices relating to microbial contamination of fresh and fresh-cut produce. “Run-off prevention and diversion structures, such as collection channels, diversion berms, and vegetated buffer areas can help divert run-off away from the water source. To protect on-farm water sources, farm agent extension recommendations range from distances of 30 to 400 feet between potential contaminants and a water source. Greater distances are strongly advised for sources near concentrated animal facilities and manure storage areas.” 2.2.2.3. Protection of water sources 4th paragraph down.

The entire analysis is something that is used as a resource and guideline for those involved in HACCP. Part 3 gives you a simple example of the HACCP process, just scroll down a short distance.

Mostly it is governed by state law and they determine it not by distance but by a sample of ground water and levels of different contaminants.

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To make things crazier up to this point the rules we have discussed are actually recommendations; except for the organic certification laws. If the proposed regulations go into effect they will become a minimum standard for everyone. So your organic farm has the application to harvest restriction of 90d or 120d but the farm down the road only has it as a recommendation. He can apply a week before if he wanted to. He is still liable for any sickness from it but it is not actually illegal for him to apply. Now that is only in the areas of the law that deal with application and contamination that I have read. There may be an actual law against a specific % of contamination hidden in the cosmetics part of the law or at the least implementing a fine and being shut down.

There is also a difference between the existing federal recommendations, organic rules, state law and local law. Farming is easy right?

I love reading through laws but it’s easy to miss something with how they end up being fragmented after years of minor changes. So I will stop flooding this thread with posts. Hopefully Cornell/GAP has a lot of info on the law, the federal recommendations, and points out which is which.

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According to the existing laws that I have read so far you aren’t supposed to let any domestic animals near the fields once you have planted the crop, at least in the case of vegetables. So the proposed law adds an exception for domestic animals as long as steps are taken to protect the crops and even specifically states draft animals as an example.

Also the proposed laws define more clearly what is and is not treated manure. 131 F. for 3 days if static or 131 F. for 15 days with a minimum of 5 turnings. Both must be followed by “adequate curing” and proper insulation. I can read through the proposal and find out what that means if you would like. Conversely you can increase the PH instead of “heating” it. There are also guidelines for treating slurry.

Chances are you will have to document when you apply raw manure and when you harvest. It depends on size of farm, amount of annual sales, # of employees, other factors, if they will take your word or want it on paper. So if you are documenting application of row manure you could also document the temperature of a manure pile. Sat for X days and if/when you turned it. How long it was covered for and of course the application date and date of harvest. Most of this is already recommended (required?) for large farms. The reason for documentation is so you don’t make a horrible mistake and if an inspector shows up you look like a responsible farmer. Documenting the really important things like routes of contamination will make an inspector happy. I used to keep portions of the laws printed and hi-lighted to make sure I was within the guidelines and in case the inspectors said I was not in compliance. Of course we would get inspected frequently, I don’t know if that is something you experience.

“If they can’t dazzle us with brilliance, they will drown us with documents.” I think you are talking about the amount of documents you have to go through and understand just to be a farmer but that statement is more true than you know. I am a very happy person since I left my previous job. Thankfully they aren’t making agriculture and small processors implement HAACP. Learning it and using the concept is great, but the amount of paperwork involved would ruin a small farm. We had 9 employees including the owner, secretary, accountant and part timers. We had to hire someone full time to do paperwork once we implemented HAACP.

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“For example, under the new USDA organic certification program the raw animal manure must either be composted, applied to land used for a crop not intended for human consumption, or incorporated into the soil at least 90 d before harvesting an edible product that does not come into contact with the soil and at least 120 d before harvesting an edible product that does come into contact with the soil. Composted plant or animal materials must be produced through a process that achieves a temperature between 131 °F (55 °C) and 170 °F (76 °C) from 3-15 d depending on the composting system.” 2.1.2.2.1. Regulations

More manure treatment and application guidelines.2.2.1 and 2.2.2

This Link is from Cornell and sums up the whole Good Agriculture Practices program. The GAP is similar to the GMP program that I had to deal with at my last job.

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Dominique, if this change goes through an untreated application of soil amendment of animal origin applied in a manner that does not contact covered produce during application and minimizes the potential for contact with covered produce after application. Can be applied every 9 months.

An untreated application of soil amendment of animal origin applied in a manner that does not contact covered produce during or after application. Can be applied at any interval – 0 days.

If it’s composted, depending on how it is done, there are 2 different rates of application – 0 days or 45 days.

“You may establish and use alternatives to the composting treatment processes established in §112.54(c)(1) and (c)(2), and for the minimum application intervals established in § 112.56(a)(1)(a) and in § 112.56(a)(4)(a), provided you have adequate scientific data or information to support a conclusion that the alternative would provide the same level of public health protection as the composting treatment processes and the minimum application intervals established in the proposed rule and would not increase the likelihood that your covered produce will be adulterated under section 402 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.”

I will have to read the existing law to find out about when you can harvest after an application.

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I will read through the regulations today. This is the type of wording used in the GMP – Good Manufacturing Practice. That is a set of federal guidelines for quality control and production. It is written in a way that is supposed to encompass as many different facilities and types of production and as many possibilities in one fell swoop. I can’t describe how crazy some of them are. I made arguments over wording with inspectors all of the time so I could run the facility how I wanted. As long as I could show it it fit the wording I was allowed. I was able to convince them that wedding rings and headphones for music can be exempt from loose items and jewelry because a person would notice them falling off and they would not fit inside the containers on the production line. In the GMP it only refers to “loose items and jewelry” but not any specific items, so it is totally open to interpretation.

“For example, if you use draft horses, you could establish and use horse paths that are segregated from the produce. If under the circumstances there is a reasonable probability that animal intrusion will contaminate covered produce, you would be required to monitor for evidence of animal intrusion immediately prior to harvest and, as needed, during the growing season.” (I will read Proposed §§ 112.83 and 112.112)

Basically we need to take steps to keep the horses from contaminating the food and watch for contamination throughout the growing season and harvest. It goes on to stipulate that if there is intrusion (contamination or damage) from any animal source you can not use it for human consumption and must take steps to keep it from occurring.

If for some reason you do get inspected you get an opportunity to explain/convince them that the chance of contamination is low with how you run your farm. If they bring up your horse needing a manure bag you can argue you can see where his droppings go and you know what food is contaminated. That may address their concern, it all depends on the situation. An inspector may decide your horse needs to be brushed, including any feathering, before working but not care or even think about a manure bag. Maybe he is only worried about your horse stepping on the food. Now you can see why it is vaguely worded, it covers and allows for a wide set of situations.

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Simon, the article mentions how you warm your horses up in the morning but how do you cool them down and prepare them for the cold nights?

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Keep us up to date. It sounds like the pressure from the traces is a big sticking point for her.

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Another problem with whole, crushed and ground corn is that 28.9%, 29.9% and 45.6% of the starch is digested in the small intestine respectively. This is at a rate of g/kg body weight/meal, 2.0:1.0 morning:evening. “Starch not digested in the small intestine is readily digested by the microbial digestion in the hindgut. Large amounts of starch bypassing the small intestine is thought to increase digestive upset because of adverse changes in the microbial population and dysfunction in the hindgut.” – Nutrient Requirements of Horse, 6th Edition, NRC. The hindgut is where grass is fermented and digested so disrupting that effects how well your horse digests it’s main food source. Feeding both a limited amount of high starch feed with hay or pasture limits this effect. Oats in any form have a much higher small intestine digestibility and are a better feed.

Plus: “Starch that is not digested in the small intestine enters the large intestine, where it will be fermented. When starch is fermented, its net energy value is lower than when it is absorbed as glucose.” NRC. If you want I can dig in here and get some of the information on protein and carbohydrates, from what I understand for a serious working horse, just like a human, carbohydrates and fats are extremely important.

My information is coming from books and not working experience. When it’s breeding season I have to supplement my stallion with sweet feed and just started adding oil as well. I can’t keep weight on him, he just won’t stop moving. The rest of the year he is on the same diet as all of the other horses, hay supplemented with alfalfa.

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Here is a really expensive product, an auto waterer that is the same concept as your small box with the 5 gallon bucket in it. They also have an insulated disc inside the water hole and a retaining ring at the top and that increases the insulation factor. Something to add if you end up with the water freezing in the bucket. https://ritchiefount.com/shop/ecofount-1

Also when I had chickens I ended up using an insulated bucket and a short length of PVC pipe with 360 degree nipple waterers attached, some heating cable and a temperature controlled outlet. You can put the nipples right in the bottom of a bucket if you don’t want to wrap cable around a bucket and PVC water line. I can send you the nipples I have if you are interested.

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