[jen judkins]

The round pen probably deserves a thread of its own, but in regard to positive and negative reinforcement, I’ll comment…and probably piss some of you off.

The round pen is simply a ‘classroom’ of sorts. It’s roundness levels the playing ground for the human (we’re wimps when it comes to running fast), but allows the horse freedom of movement (albeit in a circle). So done properly both the human and the horse benefit from the configuation in regard to their strengths.

The goals traditionally in the round pen is to use psychology to convince a horse that you can control their movement…change their direction, yield their haunches, move their forehand around, etc. Its been said by sage horsemen that if you can turn a horse around their front end 360 degrees and do the same with the hind end, they will follow you anywhere. Has anyone seen the movie, ‘The Man from Snowy River’? There is a scene where the main horseman is rounding up a big herd of horses…the one where he gallops down a steep incline (I love that scene). Anyway, he catches the herd and turns them all the way around to the left and then to the right. Then they simply follow him home. Horses are born followers and it is simpler than you think to convince them you are a leader.

In more recent times the round pen has taken on less of a ‘human dominating the horse’ to a place where horse and human can learn to communicate better. Its a place to practice what horses do with each other naturally. Horses naturally apply pressure to other horses, generally without emotion and withdraw it instantly (positive reinforcement)when the other horse complies. Many humans, on the other hand, have to get mad (negative reinforcement) to exert any pressure or significant body language, then can’t relax in an effective manner (more negative reinforcement/lack of appropriate positive reinforcement). The result is…well….very bad communication and frequently fear on the part of the horse.

I’ve seen the round pen abused often. A human applying more pressure than is necessary, knowing the horse cannot leave. It can be effective, but it is counter productive in the end, as the horse will exit when they feel they can in another setting.

Put simply a round pen can be an excellent place to teach ourselves the art of applying pressure without emotion and withdrawing it in an instant (like the clicker) when the desired behavior is witnessed or created. Once learned however, the round pen becomes obsolete.

I believe the clicker was originally created to take the emotion out of training…by distracting the trainer. Not a bad goal in and of itself…

Sorry to prattle on…

[jen judkins]

Here’s the problem I see with clicker training….its not natural for horses.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen people teach dogs and horses to do amazing things with clicker training…I’ve even used it myself to teach ‘spanish walk’ to my TB. It was fun to do too.

But if you watch a herd of horses (which is one of my favorite past times), you will not see the type of positive reinforcement that you are providing with the ‘click and treat’ method. Horses use energy and body language to move and motivate other horses. I believe that people who learn to develope those same communication skills with horses are the most successful with them. Removal of energy or pressure, also known as a ‘release’, IS positive reinforcement to horses.

Horses are not like we are. We (humans) respond positively to reward, recognition and praise, as do dogs. Horses do not need those things to perform happily.

[jen judkins]

Try this: http://www.wikco.com/images/YorkTA1B.jpg

Sometimes known as a landscaping rake.

[jen judkins]

Hal, I think ‘bitless’ bridles have a place for some horses. Just like using bits…one size does not fit all. Some will go well in a snaffle, others need some leverage (though some might argue that this is a training issue). Some will be better without the hardware in the mouth. I have used bitless bridles and hackamores on my riding horses with good success. However, I must say that some horses will dislike the bitless bridle as much as some resent a bad fitting bit. My Arab cross really dislikes the bitless bridle…it just pushes his buttons. I think it is a claustraphobic thing…he has issues with his personal space. He truly prefers a simple snaffle..so that’s what I use.

I used to take alot of pride in the fact that I could ride my horses with a hackamore or in a halter or with a simple string around their neck, but I know now that communication is not about tack…its about, well….communication. Getting a clear picture to your horse is more important than what type of tack you use. So use what works…

Every horse is an individual and the key to good horsemanship (IMHO) is to treat them as individuals and not be rigid in your approach.

[jen judkins]

Tevis got me thinking…if you kept the windrow pretty short, why couldn’t you turn it with a small york rake. I have one that I use on my arena and had planned to use it to spread a pile of compost in one of my paddocks this spring using Peanut power.

I was also talking to Ted Russell tonight and I mentioned your question. I figured if anyone had figured out how to turn a manure pile with a horse, he would. But it turns out he turns his windrows with a tractor bucket:rolleyes:. BUT he did mention this old trick. Plant stakes in the manure pile, so that when it needs a boost, you pull a few out, allowing air into the pile:o..well, it could work!

Anyhoo…good question!

[jen judkins]

http://www.o2compost.com/

I built a manure shed this past summer and love it! Its got a cement floor and back wall and 3 10 x 10 ‘stalls’ with removable dividers on the remaining 3sides. It has a roof, but the walls are only 4 foot tall or so. My plan was to install the aerating system so they would not have to be turned, but I ran out of money for that. So I admit, I am turning mine with the tractor at this point, but I believe the aerating system will speed the composting to the point where stirring is not absolutely necessary. So I’ll add it when I can. I would also make the walls alittle higher if I were to do it again. Cement was wicked expensive last summer due to diesel prices, so I skimped alittle.

Another thought. I have left piles in my pasture to compost (in areas where I know I’m gonna need better soil composition) and the horses do a great job of turning it. Only problem is keeping it in a ‘pile’…they tend to flatten it in short order. I then drag the area (easily done with Peanut) and plant seed…works great.

BTW, Carl, I really liked your plan for a manure shed/pig pen/greenhouse!

[jen judkins]

Hal, Let me just say up front that horse pulls don’t really interest me much, but I have been to a few and have friends that are quite successful all up and down the eastern seaboard pulling with thier horses or oxen.

Horse pulling is a HUMAN endeavor (as is plowing or trail riding or even skijoring) and is subject to man’s tendency to put their own interests first. Even a farmer has to face their own agenda when developing a working relationship with horses or oxen. Its up to the teamster to, as you say, keep ‘the animals’ best interests at heart’. All things being equal, I find farmers and loggers who use draft animal power, who have a natural tendency to work with nature and not against it, generally have an easier time finding the balance between getting work done and keeping their animals happy and healthy.

Its interesting to me that those teamsters (I know) who excel in pulling (competitively/financially) don’t use their animals for anything else. My neighbor is very successful at oxen pulling and he has a big farm. I watch him spend hours with his oxen pulling big cement blocks around. In fact, their whole driveway is full of these blocks, all different sizes. It bugs me that he doesn’t have the imagination or the inclination to actually do some real work with these animals (and trust me their is plenty to do).

The other guy I know breeds, raises and trains the ‘free for all’ horses. These horses, all belgians, are absolutely freakish in size…some weighing in at 2600-2800 lbs. He’s a good horseman, works his horses regularly and the training is evident at pulls. His horses are calm, wait for the command to move off, pull the load together and barely break a sweat. So while I respect him for his ability to produce good working horses, I simply wonder ‘why?’ It seems like a waste of good horsepower. But just like racing cars, playing baseball and running marathons..its what ‘humans do’ and it involves alot of money in many cases….a recipe for corruption if you ask me.

Most of the competitors at these meets have horses that are undertrained, unconfident and completely overfaced. Its clear the teamsters have tipped the balance between the working relationship and their egos…in the wrong direction.

But I think it is wrong to say that horse pulling is the only venue that you see abuse or bad training or unhappy horses. Just look at the racetrack or the dressage ring or the show jumping arena. There are working relationship’s that exemplify good horsemanship and those that don’t. Its more about what the ‘person’ in the equation brings to the relationship and less about what the task at hand is, be it pulling a load, plowing, logging, racing or jumping.

[jen judkins]

Very Nice!!!:)

[jen judkins]

Being somewhat of a super ‘mega tasker’, I’m confused by this thread. What makes a bull calve such a loser? Meat is meat, IMHO…don’t care if it is male or female. So is this just a dairy farmer issue or what?

Back when I lived in SW colorado, my neighbors who raise cattle…mostly for meat…had a party every spring. They gelded the bull calves, then served up the Rocky Mountain Oysters as party favors. Not my taste, but those calves went to slaughter just like thier sisters.

So why can’t dairy farmers multitask and simply send the bull calves to a separate market. Here in my own neighborhood, the local dairy farmers (well were..they sold out a year or so ago), would simply give the bull calves to their sons who then raised them for meat. Yum!

I’m solidly with Robert. There certainly could be a better solution than euthanasia, IMO.

[jen judkins]

Yep, my thoughts exactly. I cracked a smile but then felt bad about it:p

[jen judkins]

J-L, That sounds like alot of fun…I love Wyoming! Sign me up!

That said, it is snowing again here….so my list of things to get done will have to wait abit longer. I’ll bring this post back up to the front when the weather looks cooperative. Thanks for the input all.

[jen judkins]

So tonight as I was getting ready for our ‘storm’, I came across the carcass of a feral cat that died earlier this winter in our garage. I was waiting till spring to bury her, but this thread has ‘encouraged’ me to consider composting her. So into the compost pile she goes. How long would you think a small cat would take to fully compost? I don’t want to scare my neighbors who enjoy my composted manure…

Thanks for starting this thread, Donn. Though I had some initial revulsion, I now find the concept very appealing…though it is totally linked with a complete dread of losing one of my beloved horses.

[jen judkins]

Doesn’t burying a body do the same thing…return the nutrients to the earth? I realize burial is illegal in some areas, so I guess composting is the way to go, it just makes me alittle queazy. Guess I’ve got a long way to go in regards to being a ‘real’ farmer:eek:

[jen judkins]

@Robert MoonShadow 6085 wrote:

These mules won’t even step over it if a deer knocks it down… ‘cept that time a bear came into the canyon…

Yeah, the only time my horses have escaped my property was under threat of a bear. I only had two at the time and they both cleanly jumped the fence…motivated for sure.

[jen judkins]

I use 3 strands of polybraid on my perimeter fence (which has never been breached). Had a tree fall on it once…was a simple matter to remove the tree and plop the wires back on the fence post.

I use 2 strands to enclose my winter paddock. I have minis, so the lower wire is for them. I put the lower wire at nose level for them and then one at nose level for the bigger horses. They bust through this occasionally (though fingers crossed not this winter).

I use a single strand for my rotational grazing in the summer and I occasionally find one of the minis in the wrong section grazing, but its not a big deal and they usually wander back on their own.

Very easy stuff to work with and move around.

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