[jen judkins]

Hey Gulo, welcome to the group. I would love to see some photos of your water buffalo team at work! Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Jason, I was gonna PM you, but then thought others might benefit from this info as well.

When you post a reply, scroll down below the ‘post reply’ button and you will see a link that says ‘manage attachments’. Hit that button and you can browse your drive for the photo you want and it should show up in the message.

Hope that helps. I’ll know it worked when I see your shoe! Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Yeah, George the beta stays quite abit more flexible in the cold. It has to do with moisture content, I believe. Leather absorbs moisture whereas the beta does not. This is why leather is tough to work with in wet weather (at least at the buckles.) I love the beta lines.

[jen judkins]

Missy, As a physician I tend to be over observant in regard to bowel movements, lol. And since I pick of most of the manure on the property for composting, I pay more attention than most. I have noted that alittle extra water in the poop is common for this time of the year, particularly with my belgian. I think it is a GI response to the change of forage…at least in my own herd. In general, I don’t worry unless the pile is very flat (ie soggy) and is persistently so. If the buns are well formed, all is generally well. I feed alot of probiotics during the change of seasons and all seems to improve in a matter of weeks (though it might improve without the intervention as well).

In contrast, I had 6 months of profuse, watery, explosive diarrhea in my belgian as a yearling…truely scarey stuff. He was never sick, nor was he ever off feed….but the mess he made….I will never recover! He was treated for worms two or three times, giarrdea twice without improvement. Turns out he ate a boat load of red electric tape as a weanling at a different farm and he had a partial bowel obstruction. Don’t ask how I figured that out…but alot of red tape in the poop and a small town…well, its a long story!

So I wouldn’t worry too much! Just keep an eye out and maybe add some probiotics for a week or two. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Did I read this right, Jason? 900 bucks for 17 weeks of instruction? Meals and lodging included? That can’t be right….can you clarify?

Otherwise I’ll have to quite my day job and come on down;). Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Welcome, Beth. Pretty girl, that Pesto.

What type of harrow are you using with your single? Is it a pasture drag? I have a two year old that I want to do some light work with and I’m looking at implements he might be able to handle as a single. Thanks. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Maybe fear is an entirely human attribute all together and an unuseful term in this context. It is not that horses become fearful naturally, but that they take to ‘flight’ so naturally in response to anything suspicious. I’ve actually been pondering my own thoughts about this as well and I agree that we as humans tend to invade reality with our own expectations, exeriences and …well, our own fear (which is a real human attribute).

I, for instance have most of my horse experience with Arabs and Thouroughbreds, and both are breeds that will go quite a long ways before they stop, blow and re-assess. In fact, I’ve been told that an arab will go 100 miles before looking back, lol. Thankfully my half arab will only go 25 or so:D. But the truth is, you have to go with these horses a fair ways, before you can expect them to respect your leadership. You can shut them down, sure, but you won’t win in the long run.

So when I work with Peanut and I feel his need to move and it feels urgent, my experience expects a long run, perhaps a wreck. But in truth, even that hidden expectation has not produced a single truly scarey or dangerous moment. In fact, I’m learning a tremendous amount about the variations between breeds and individuals. Peanuts flight response is quite easy
to adjust and dial down, even in the presence of my own expectations.

As usual, I think we have the best success when we adapt to the situation, the individual (horse in this case) and the problem at hand. It also helps to have a bunch of experience within the context you are working. Until then, its all education….well, it probably always education, but you get my drift.

Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Personally, I like the natural predator-prey relationships like that between a semi-feral cat and mice. I run across a half eaten mouse from time to time, but generally my mouse population is nil. We got 2 feral kittens from a neighbor, handled them enough to catch them for shots and neutering and let them do their thing. I simply make sure they have fresh water and I feed them lightly in the winter. We had another feral cat move in last winter….I hav-a-hearted her, fixed her and set her back out to work. She is still with us but not approachable at all.

This method has worked for me and I don’t have to dispose of little bodies (except on occasion). The cats seem fine all winter long in the barn…I even see them out in the woods hunting in the snow.

I tried to make my house cat a barn cat once….it didn’t work. She got pissed and ran away from home…haven’t seen her since. I think they have to be one or the other and start out that way to be happy.

Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

So Peanut and I cantered in harness today…by accident;). I’ve called it ‘bolting’ in the past, but I’m now gonna think of it as ‘practicing de-escalation’.

We’ve been triing to work on ‘Whoa’ since he got home from Ted’s and thankfully I finally felt some headway yesterday when Peanut offered to stop moving at the first utterence of the word…..without the need for reinforcement. A happy day indeed.

Anyway, he bolted on a paved road, approaching an intersection. He was clearly scared of something. Its funny, I didn’t even compute the danger until we got home safely and I had time to digest. I braced my feet, put alot of pressure in the reins and said ‘whoa’ twice. We maybe went 100 feet. I was pretty satisfied with our first bit of excitement.

On the way home we cut through the lower pasture toward the barn. I decided to experiment with my premise that speed and anxiety tend to go together. I asked Peanut to canter up the hill and he happily complied, but without any nervous energy or anxiety…it was quite lovely. And I’m certainly happy to be wrong once again:D.

Jennifer

[jen judkins]

Rod, I’ve been waiting all day for someone to answer your question! I’m dying to know, lol:D.

My feeling is that ‘gee’ and ‘haw’ are simply words and it is the teamsters reinforcement of these words that determine their definition to the horse or ox. I don’t work a team, so the words apply only to my single draft and I have a very specific idea of what he needs to do in response to each word before he recieves a release (he is still learning…only 2 yo). But my idea might be different from yours and so we will have a different outcome all together, depending on the situation. You could use the word ‘tequila’ and teach a very specific manuvuer if you reinforce just right.

This might be a good opportunity to simply learn from your horses. Since they are already trained, observe what their response is to each word and use that information to solidify the response…if it is what you want.

Hopefully someone who know something will chime in. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Welcome, Clodius! Fascinating stuff! Any pictures? Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 3576 wrote:

As a result of our latest fund raising drive we have gotten $640. YEAH!!!
AWESOME JOB FOLKS.Carl

That is so wonderful!

I would go with either the draft association or a pledge drive….either way it looks like we are up to it. Maybe we should do both and set up a scholarship fund, perhaps to go towards an course with Jason Rutledge or the like for a young newbie. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

That’s what I was thinking after reading this thread, Rick. Makes sense, though I’m not sure what a good chipper costs. I might look into that as I have alot of brush clearing plans at my place for the next couple of years at least. Would be nice to do sonething with it beside burning it. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

I believe there are relatively few truly brave horses. Meaning that ‘courage’ or the intention to be courageous in the face of fear, does not come naturally to horses. Being prey animals, their whole mode of survival depends on their ability to percieve danger and run away. That said, I have indeed witnessed horses exhibiting courage to one extent or another.

I’ve seen a horse chase down and stomp on a coyote (while the rest of the herd turned tail). I came across a lone horse in the woods once in the pouring rain, standing over the unconcious body of his rider. I’ve even watched my own alpha gelding ‘rescue’ the rest of the herd when they became disoriented in an abruptly violent storm. He ran down, circled them and pushed them back up the hill through several gates to the safety of the barn. He wouldn’t take shelter himself until everyone was inside and safe.

Perhaps what I observed was not courage, but something else. I don’t really know.

In the working relationship between a human and a horse, there is clearly a correlation between the confidence of the handler and the confidence of the horse. A confident rider or teamster will bring out the tendency for confidence in any horse they work with because of their focus and their ‘clear expectations’ (quoting Carl here), even if that particular horse isn’t typically very confident. Whereas a less confident handler might get by with a naturally confident horse, they would likely have difficulty convincing a skeptical horse to work through scarey situations.

I don’t know if confidence is equivalent to courage, but there are clearly horses out there that go way above the natural call of duty, particularly in regard to work ethic and I don’t know if that is in them from the start or if it is a product of brilliant leadership (or perhaps both).

Horses are likely as complex as humans in regard to the spectrum of characteristics they might express. For instance, my alpha gelding…the same one that rescued the herd in the storm….would not be considered a brave horse by most. He is skiddish and skeptical, perceptive to danger to a very high degree. Perhaps that is what makes him such a good herd leader? The bravest horse in my herd is also the lowest in the pecking order…an elderly quarterhorse. Perhaps it is his age and long experience that makes him so? Again, I don’t really know.

In our training drives, Peanut is frequently alittle nervous about what is up ahead on the road, but he is easily convinced there is no danger and moves along with very little encouragement from me. I try hard not to prattle on with words that don’t mean anything, maintain my focus and intention to get to where we are going. A simple approach, perhaps, but he is getting more confident everyday. Interesting thread.

[jen judkins]

I certainly don’t disagree with your opinion, Iron Rose. If there is someone with the power and experience to get the point across in an effective manner, well that would be money very well spent.

As it is, at least in my area, good farriors are hard to come by and most of them have schedules to keep and backs to preserve for future income potential. I’ve seen very experienced farriors work wonders with a problem horse, but I have also seen horses get much worse with time because the farrior doesn’t take the time to enlist the horse’s cooperation, due to time constraints or whatever. Besides which I think it is unfair to expect the farrior to manage behavior problems, except of course in the case you are describing of someone who does that for a living.

For myself, I have to think of ways to seek cooperation, as I have no way of out manuvuering or overpowering my horses in anyway, except psychologically and mentally. So I have to be smarter and more creative in my approach. Giving another creature a way to feel they have control over their environment to the extent it is safe and productive, is not ‘spoiling’ them….it is simply away to get along.

Timing is key as it is the release that teaches. As you say, if the horse always gets a release when they take their foot away, that’s what they learn. There are many ways to teach a horse to pick up their foot and stand quietly…all have merit and as you say, every horse is different.

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