[OldKat]

@Donn Hewes 7385 wrote:

About useing the lead rope. Don’t start leading them for things you already know they can do on their own. Just leave the halter on under the bridle and attach the lead rope, hang the end up on a hame, so it will stay there. Now your wife can walk with you! Now the lead rope is available as an extra tool should it be needed to help the horse investigate a new thing or situation. try to hang it back up as soon as it is not needed again.

Actually, investigating all these interesting situations without any load is part of what makes it difficult. Provided the animal is well accustomed to the thing they are hooked to; when you run into something new the cart or sled has a little anchoring effect that encourages the animal to stay and figure something out. Investigating without that support is fine you just notice their movements may be a little quicker.

Tell me more about “getting ahead of the bit” if you like. Sounds like you are having fun to me. Donn

PS. Larry, I just read your post after I wrote mine. Great advice about staying alert. If you can be calm and relaxed and alert all at the same time that is a real skill. I think over time it becomes a habit and we are alert without trying. This makes a huge difference. Seeing the things that might be a challange for your team before they do gives you a whole different set of options for dealing with it and setting them up to handle it in a positive way. I keep my eyes on the their heads, this is a great indicator of what is going on.

… on the lead rope. I was kind of figuring that is the way you meant to use it and even if not, that is pretty much the way I was going to have to approach it because, like I said before, my girls didn’t take real well to being led and driven at the same time anyway.

What I meant by “getting ahead of the bit” is that Maggie was REALLY leaning into the bit, I felt like she was pulling me down the road with her mouth. It was a distinctly different feeling on the lines than I have experienced with her before, or what I felt when I was driving the other mare. Maybe I used a poor choice of words in trying to describe what she was doing. She only relaxed and let me keep even moderate tension on the lines when we got about a 100 feet or so from the gate to the place. Otherwise it was a tug of war, which is not real rewarding. I tried bringing her to a full stop several times, letting her relax for a minute and then starting her up again. This did seem to help a little bit, but within 150 feet or so she was back to tugging on the bit again.

I can tell when both of them are concerned about something that they are approaching, because they both tend to cock their head with the nose tucked toward their chest and they get their head way up, ears almost pointing at whatever concerns them. They also eventually come to a stop with their front legs braced. I think I can detect this in time to pull them up and let my wife get on the lead rope. I will be home this Friday, Saturday and Sunday so we are going to get 3 days to find out.

I don’t have anything to lose by giving your suggestion a shot, as trying to push them past the thing that concerned them didn’t work all that well. I’ll let you know how it works out.

Stephen R.

[OldKat]

@LStone 7384 wrote:

OldKat,

I have experienced a lot of what you are seeing with your team. My filly once harnessed wouldn’t move forward to save her own life. She is the one I referred to once in this group as the “herky jerky” filly. I ended up getting her to go with help from someone on a lead rope, but even with that at it took a while. I thought she was herd bound to my gelding because it was only a month or so after getting her to my place that I started her up, and figured the move was hard on her with losing friends and gaining new ones etc. But actually I have no idea of what was wrong or why she came out of it eventually. She still isn’t very good at being tied with blinders on and is leary of anything new to her. This included all of what you pointed out and some old standbys such as flapping flags, Snowmobiles, snowblowers, and Oh by the way air blowoffs on commercial trucks. I never even thought of that one until it happened with both my bigguns hooked to a forecart. Neither one of them had any tolerance for that and it happened at the most perfect time possible.We learned together that time and most of my life was reviewed, but I can’t wait for it to happen again. This winter I had two of my three horses side by side with a snowblower for a time. I don’t know that it helped permanently but the later passes were handled quite a bit differently by them than the earlier ones.

There have been many good posts on this subject and the only other things I would add if not already covered are to be alert for potential fear triggers and I increase my verbal communication with them to try to get them to split their attention between me and the fear. I have found that it might help in deadening the negative reaction, but what do I know? Try to find what they are skittish of and spend time with them to desensitize them of the fear. There are grunches of things for these guys to be afraid of and every horse has a different threshold of what bothers them. I imagine it will take a long life with the same horse to figure out and cure it of all fear, even if you are fortunate enough to find them all. So Just keep digging at it. In my limited experience I have kind of adopted a (time+miles=success) philosophy. It isn’t how you get to “success” but it is the fact you get there at all.

Oh yeah, then there is the confidence thing. That I am sure you have read about many time around here.

Larry

Larry,

I got a good laugh out of your line; “and most of my life was reviewed, but I can’t wait for it to happen again” and I am not sure if you mean confidence on the part of the team or on the part of the teamster, or maybe both. Still, I can relate.

One time I was driving an Amish buggy that an Amish guy I know had hitched to a relatively green mare. We were heading down an open highway with no traffic in sight when suddenly the mare lurched to the right and jumped into the ditch. Mare, buggy and all just seemed to float there for a second. Fortunately the ditch was fairly flat and no harm was done.

After I pulled her back up onto the highway I saw the cause of the problem. An Amish youngster was riding a saddle horse down the opposite shoulder and shot past us, startling the mare. He saw what was happening and reined up to see if we were okay. Later, I learned that he had been late to school so had been pushing his mount pretty hard. Anyway, his uncle John (the guy I knew) made him come over that afternoon and apologize for the incident. I told him an apology was not required, because I knew the kid didn’t mean any harm and besides it helped me greatly with my confidence that I could regain control when something like that happens. AND … stuff happens.

[OldKat]

Geoff and Erika,

Thank you for your kind words. We really will miss that guy; he was one of a kind.

Stephen R.

[OldKat]

@Simple Living 7391 wrote:

I think I received it as a gift now that I think of it. BUT…..I did find it at the Rural Heritage web page. Here is a link to their page. I would think you could find it in other places as well. Hope it helps.

http://ruralheritage.com/bookstore/catalog_details.cgi?recno=517

Gordon

Thanks Gordon. I’ll check it out for sure.

Stephen R.

[OldKat]

Wow, what a great looking stallion! Anybody have a black or dappled gray version of him hanging out around their place?

Stewart; sounds like it may be a little more expensive than if the stud farm was around the corner from your place, but since you don’t have that luxury this may be an acceptable alternative for you. I’d sure look into it if I were in your position.

Again, good luck.

[OldKat]

@NovaStew 7390 wrote:

I’m pretty new to horses and animal husbandry, having gotten involved in logging about 5 years ago, and now farming with my team of Suffolks. They are amazing creatures-and with spring coming on, I have been thinking of getting my mare bred. The problem is, I live in Nova Scotia and don’t know of any Suffolk studs around, the closest ones I can find on the American Suffolk horse association website are in Vermont or Quebec-a really long haul. I am wondering if anyone out there has advice on long distance breeding, or knows of anyone with a suffolk stud closer to me? I bought them with the hopes of keeping this old working breed alive into our unpredictable global future, but I guess with such a small gene pool-I should have foreseen this problem.
Thanks for all the great info.
Stewart

Can’t help you in anyway Stewart, but I understand EXACTLY what you are saying. I have a Percheron mare that is the old style, short & thick … not at all the “hitch type” which is apparently becoming the norm today. I would like to have more like her, but I haven’t been able to locate a stallion of that type anywhere even remotely close. I keep thinking that this should be an ideal application for AI, but there seems to be little interest in collecting these studs. I think there is some technical reason that it is more difficult to use AI for horses than it is for cattle, but there is bound to be a way.

I am also looking to preserve the short, thick, easy keeping Red Angus cattle that were common when the breed first came into being as unique breed outside the (Black) Angus association in the 1950’s. I heard about a breeder that had a whole tank of semen that her dad had collected on these foundation bulls, but someone else had already bought it before I heard about it. Point is those genetics were preserved; they are being used today. There has to be someway to do this with horses, because once these old lines are gone they are not recoverable. Same thing with other minor breeds of livestock and poultry. I know there is an organization called the Minor Breeds Conservancy, but am not real familiar with what they do.

Good luck in your quest.

[OldKat]

@near horse 7354 wrote:

http://www.aaronmartin.com/

Some logging stuff as well – Aaron Martin hook (see attachment).

… GREAT! I’ve bought some stuff from them. Really good service.

[OldKat]

@D.Todd Newlin 7368 wrote:

i was always told not to make excuses for the horse. i guess its best towork with what you got. i recently brought home a horse that was worked and trained but didn’t quite understand what i wanted from her when i started ground driving her single. she would turn on me but i could keep her in front of me. what i did was simple. i had a friend lead her as i drove her. so she stepped foward when thats what i wanted etc. after a while of doing this i made sure my friend had no tension on the lead, a few more times around and he dropped off. later that morning i had her in front of a disc harrow and working up a sweat. she was well trained already but understood pennsylvania dutch commands, wop instead of haw, yip instead of come up, but its all in the gesture and she took right to me. i hope your having luck.

Thanks for answering my post. Actually, when I started ground drving them in the round pen I did use a helper on a lead rope. However, with both mares within about 10 minutes it appeared that they were more confused by the helper than they were without them so I did away with that real fast. However, there may still be some value in having someone along with a lead rope when out on the road.

Probably they did not benefit from the helper in the round pen, because where else where they going to go? Since they could try to avoid going past obstacles out on the road they did. Both you and Donn suggested using a lead rope, if need be. Maybe I need to listen to the voices of experience.

My wife likes to go walking anyway, so I think I will recruit her to be my helper this weekend. The mares are use to her anyway, because she feeds for me sometimes when business takes me out of town. This could actually be fun. I’m glad you guys suggested this.

Thanks again.

[OldKat]

@Donn Hewes 7366 wrote:

Hi Old Kat, just some thoughts and observations. “the leaf blower” the “man whole cover”, and a “bridge’ all constitute things I would expect a green horse to react to. I would be surprised if they didn’t. Before we think about how to “drive’ them by it, I would think about what they want from a leader when they encounter something new and possibly dangerous (in their minds).

Can you sense when they start to tense up, before they think of turning away from it? If you catch them before they are too close you might try letting them give it good looking over. When you sense that they are ready let them go forward. Don’t rush past something like a leaf blower; at what ever distance they can handle let them get used to it. If a bridge or leaf blower is really scary you may need to work up to it gradually. You could use a lead rope for a time or two if you need to.

Finally, when they question whether something is safe or not, your calm, relaxed demeanor will confirm their thinking that this might be OK. Any frustration or extra energy from you will convince them that their suspicions were right, it is a hazard to be avoided.

I wouldn’t add extra rings to the harness as they might interfere when you do want to cross over the horses back. Try to anticipate these little demonstrations and head them off by making them relax before going forward. If you have done several of these long drives they are probably ready to pull something. Let me know if I am way off base. Donn

No, you are pretty much on target. I have worked really hard over the years on “low and slow” with my animals, so I don’t think I am telegraphing concern to them. They never “pitched a fit” or tried to “run away” from these obstacles, they just wanted to spin & go the other way. What I did was turn them back into whatever boogey man was after them, give them a firm “whoa” and then rest my hand on their rump. Then, when they calmed down a little, I asked them to walk by it and in every case they did. This got us past each obstacle without a major scene.

The mares had been ground driven away from the barn area before, but always away from town meaning into a more open area. That was their first exposure to heavier traffic, and more human activity. I drove toward town just to find out how they would react. So I quess in retrospect I shouldn’t be too surprised. In fact all in all, I’d have to say they handled most of it fairly well. It was just these few incidents that had me concerned. Perhaps I was expecting more from them than I should have.

The larger mare, Maggie, is more prone to getting excited. Overall she is actually calmer and more laid back, but when she does get rattled she really gets her head up in the air, works her ears and wants to prance. Not surprisingly, when she has been hitched to a load (disc, harrow, etc) she is the more honest puller. On Sunday I did have a problem with her trying to get out in front of the bit, especially on the way back to the barn. So I want to explore that issue some more with you. (As relates to an earlier post by someone else)

Rachel is actually a bit more inclined to see boogey monsters everywhere, but as soon as she can identify something as non-threatening she calms right down. She does not require much pressure at all on the bit, but does tend to “wander” when you are driving her if you give her zero tension on the lines. I tried the alternating pulse, release, pulse, release tension with both of them. It worked a little better with Rachel; Maggie was so intent on getting back to the barn that it made little difference. I’m thinking of hauling them 5 or 6 miles away from the barn and driving them down some very quite dirt roads just to judge where there are in a unfamiliar environment. Any value to that approach?

[OldKat]

@Rod 7352 wrote:

I just bought one at Tractor Supply, slightly used, ground driven, cone type and apparently it works for seed as well as granular fertilizers. It has a seed table with adjustment settings printed on the spreader barrel. Made for an ATV but a forecart would work fine.

that I have seen at Tractor Supply. I figure it should do great behind a forecart. I didn’t know they handled used equipment at TSC; that is interesting to know.

My son works part time at a TSC store, so I was going to have him buy one for me with his employee discount. Hope I get to the point where I can use it before he graduates from college and moves on.

[OldKat]

@Simple Living 7247 wrote:

This is taken from Sam Moore’s book “Implements for Farming with Horses and Mules, a Modern All-In-One Manual” It is a bit pricey but I have learned a wealth of knoledge,well worth the price.

“The center of power of a 2 horse team is a line from a point exactly midway between the inside hame hooks to the center clevis of the evener. The center of draft of a 14″ two-horse walking plow is about 2″ in from the landside and directly under the middle of the plow beam. The distance from the center of draft to the edge of the furrow wall is thus 14″ minus 2″, or 12”. The furrow horse walkes in the middle of the furrow, so his singletree clevis will be 7″ from the furrow wall. The distance then, from the center of draft, or the middle of the evener to the singletree clevis is 19″, calling for a 38″ evener.

For a 12″plow, the center of draft is approximately 10 1/2″ from the furrow wall plus 6″ to the center of the furrow, or 16 1/2″. Thus, a 33″ evener should be used on a 12″ plow.”

There is a lot more information on plowing and such in the book. I find it easy to read and if you have some basic knowledge of machines and physics, you can translate the information for your needs. Hope this helps and not clouds the issue.

Gordon

Where did you buy this book? I don’t remember seeing this one in the SFJ Bookshelf, etc. Sounds like one I should have.

[OldKat]

@Jean 7344 wrote:

I have only ground driven my mare, and she was a horrible spinner in the beginning. I would get all tangled up. Someone suggested that I stop driving her with the lines over her butt, but on her side. I find that easier to do that if I take the time to put her whole harness on and use the rings in the hames, rather then just using a sircingle that would slip around when she spun. She still tries to spin, but does not get very far because I can offset it with the lines on her side. She is barn sour and will only walk a straight line if we are headed back to the barn, or to the gate. It will take a lot of time and work to get her to move nicely, but at least I have I that one “trick” to keep her from spinning around to face me.

I was hoping someone could provide some perspective and experience with this issue. I think I’ll use the team harness and add some rings on the hips to keep the lines down off her rump. Thanks again for the feedback.

[OldKat]

@Plowboy 7259 wrote:

This ordeal was just the frosting on the cake. I found out that two local guys that had asked for advice last fall hadn’t done a damn thing with their horses since the weather got cold. The one had a Haflinger that got away from them. Turned out she was just herdbound and wanted to get back with the other horses. I told them to drive her several times a week on a light load and when the weather got better more often. She was well broke when they got her I know where she came from and have seen her work. They ground drove her twice this winter! big deal. Since the weather got better I asked if they had been working her ,”No but we’ve been thinking alot about it”. Whatever!!
The other guy bought a broke broke pair of crosses at the same sale. He drove them once before Christmas and not again until last weekend. They wanted to trot and he seems to feel now that they are too much for him. I could go get them and sharpen them up and slow them down but I know they will just get turned out again to go stale.
Makes a guy disgusted just thinking about it. I have enough irons in the fire I don’t need to go around helping others but I always do. Those two guys might be on there own now though.
Sometimes here I feel as though I could type until my fingers were sore not because I like typing but because I’m trying to explain and help someone. It seems more times than not my response is dismissed so it makes you wonder why you bothered. I’m not giving up completely I just might sit back and watch for a while before I add to any discussions.

Dennis,

I know EXACTLY how you feel about people asking advice and then not following it. We use to do some showing when the kids were young and we had great success; flat out dominating for several years at the county fair. The animals we bred won numerous shows from one end of our state to the other. Countless newbies would come ask our advice and virtually none of them ever followed up on it. At first it really bugged me. But know what? I was completely honest with them, even when they would be in competition with my kids because I knew they weren’t going to follow up anyway. They wanted a quick, easy fix … usually there aren’t any. Still, I offered the advice and maybe bits and pieces of it stuck with some of them.

The value of this forum to me is knowing there are experienced hands out there like you, Donn, Carl, Jason, and many others (that don’t come to mind right now) that are willing to share your experience. Each time a question is asked I glean a bit of info from everything you guys say. Does that mean I am going to go apply EVERYTHING that EVERYONE says verbatum? No, but it gives me a starting point to consider what the options are. Many times I would see someone post a question and would develop an answer in my mind as to how I would approach it. Then after reading the various responses I have an “Ah, ha” moment and I can apply that insight to my situation, if applicable. Point is, if guys such as yourself don’t offer your input we all lose. Please reconsider your desire to limit your responses.

On a lighter note, this forum is a great way for me to do something educational when the slipped disc in my lower back hurts so bad that I can’t sleep … like right now.

[OldKat]

Larry, could you describe your wagon a little more? Length, width, seating etc? I saw a wagon that someone had gone to great trouble to outfit sitting along a fenceline the other day with a For Sale sign on it, just curious if it is something similar to what you have. Also, what kind of dollars does something like that fetch?

[OldKat]

@jenjudkins 7182 wrote:

Kristan, I don’t do much frog trimming either…BUT it does help to center and trim the frog to the point where you can use it as a landmark for your coffin bone. It looks as though you have trimmed the apex (which is the most helpful in regard to landmarks), but I would extend that trim all the way back to heels. Especially if you have a twist in the foot. Otherwise, you could be uneven in your trim as the collateral grooves are difficult to see.

Another point I thought of after I posted is that your horse could be sore to palpation due to simple bruising. Drafts have a tendancy for these big frogs and it is hard sometimes to know how much frog to leave on the ground. In lighter horses, its not such a big deal, but on a barefoot draft, you could have too much load on the back half of the frog. I know what you mean by ‘smearing’;). But this might also be another sign that there is too much frog on the ground. Trim it back to a normal appearance and in a position where the heels will share the load.

Wish I lived closer….I love looking at feet

This would be my guess as well.

[Author]

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