[sanhestar]

I always started the young horses with a double broken bit after I introduced them to “giving the head”, turn left, turn right, stop with a side-pull.

[sanhestar]

@highway 5792 wrote:

I know from experiance that the show circuit seems to think that tie stalls are cruel because it does not allow free movement when in the barn.

it’s not just thought as a cruelty, in Germany (with the exception of Bavaria and Nordrhein Westfalen) it actually IS a violation of animal wellfare to keep a horse in a tie stall. Several studies prove that a large number of horses kept in a tie stall will develop abnormal behavior.

Some people argue that horses that work most of the day won’t mind to be kept in a tie stall but I think that especially a hard working horse deserves the space to lay down and stretch out completely for REM sleep phases to recover from the days work and be fresh and rested the next day (as the resting periods throughout the day have already been disrupted by the working hours). Also to have enough space to move a bit during the night.

If you’ve ever been forced to lay in a bed that’s too small for you to sleep comfortably after hard work you might be able to relate to that.

As for unused/wasted space resp. being able to keep more animals: a better solution – in my opinion – would be to tear down the separating walls between the boxes and create a “pen box” – combined with the paddock. This always done under consideration for the minimum space requirements for the individual animal:

according to german and swiss animal wellfare laws

Box stall: at least (2x height at withers)2

I can’t formate it correctly. It should read

(2x withers height) x (2x withers height)

For groups of 5 and more horses in one large pen the measurement of the pen can be reduced by maximum 20% – if the animals get along well with each other.

In large pens there’s another advantage: you don’t need to have the whole space filled with bedding. If you place a beam to stop the bedding from sliding through the whole box you can create a sleeping space with bedding and a walking/standing/eating place without bedding.

[sanhestar]

also,

as flight animals cattle have, like horses, about 300° (or more) view radius. If one doesn’t use blinders they are very well able to see you and read you when you walk behind them.

I think it’s more the unfamiliarity of the situation or that a position behind the animal is understood as “move away from me” in animal talk.

[sanhestar]

Wolfgang,

could you elaborate what you mean with position of the heads (if you want and if it’s easier for you to explain per pm in German, I can translate it for the others then)?

[sanhestar]

Howie,

if I understand your post correctly, the main thing would be to adjust the neck seat not only for the width of the neck but also for the angle, the yoke is in – wow, couldn’t even ask this question proper in German, much less in English – do you know what I mean?

Question for the ones that drive with collars or forehead yokes: how about using a miss matched team with this type of harnessing? Different length of chains, I think.

[sanhestar]

Rod,

in fact, a single broken bit can be sharper that an unbroken one.

I hope I can explain it good enough:

when you pull on a broken bit, the bit will come together, the broken middle acting like a joint. This can cause the tongue to get squeezed (sometimes very uncomfortably) or even the lower jaw. The upright middle section can poke into the palate, as well.

But with them constantly rubbing their heads it could also be something with the leather or the snaps – kind of an allergic itching, maybe reacting with the sweat when they are working.

The bit could be too small and squeeze the corners of the mouth or have developed sharp edges where the rings are attached (or somewhere else on the bits).

@near horse: tongue out is a sign or symptom for too hart, sharp use of the bit (in the past?). Maybe there has been a time where this horse actually suffered an injury of the tongue or has problems with his teeth (have you checked them). He’s trying to relieve the pressure of the bit on the tongue. Maybe the bit doesn’t fit or he has other problems (I’ve heard that horses with back pains can show this tongue out/tongue over the bit).

The bit could be sitting too low in his mouth, too.

As a first step I would have a vet who has experience with tooth problems in horses examine his mouth, teeth and tongue.

Finding a bit that fits the horse is almost like finding good fitting shoes. I liked to pick the bits in stores or at fairs where a could feel them (this wouldn’t prevent that I picked a wrong one occasionaly..)

Sabine

Sabine

[sanhestar]

Howie,

I second that wholeheartedly.

It took little Emmy two turns to figure out that she can “outsmart” me by wedging herself between two older cows.

But I’m not as gullible as the thinks I am :-). Fortunately for me she responds so well to body position that I can push her in the other direction and keep her away from them cows.

The last thing I did with her was to stop her with body language and not allow her to pass me. The look on her face was worth paying for!

[sanhestar]

Howie,

I heard that Devons aren’t the best beginner’s breed…..

@Wolfgang: always wanted to drive a Lamborghini 🙂

I asked my hubby about Pinzgauer and Holstein-Frisians and Highland Cattle and Höhenvieh (my choices) and he said: Höhenvieh.

I’ll do anything to keep him happy (he has to put up with a really crazy wife 😀 )

Sabine

[sanhestar]

Wolfgang,

I’m going for the real hard cases 🙂

Rotes Höhenvieh aka Devon.

Sabine

[sanhestar]

After having spent almost an hour a few days ago with the heifers in question (second time now), I think, the biggest challenge is that they are still running with the herd.

Although the mother cows are fixed in a feeding panel, there are enough younger calves and bulls the same age as the heifers that can provide “cover” from me.

But this was also interesting to experience. Which heifer prevers which bull calve as protector and which bull calve will step up to the job. Luckily all of them are really soft in regard to body language and will move easily away from me when I ask them to.

I think I will ask the owner of the herd if she can provide some seperation pen where I can work with one heifer at a time. I’ll also observe how she acts towards the heifers, if she chases them off a lot or allows them to come nearer.

I was able to give Emma a good and long rubbing session when she wedged herself between to older cows at the feeding panel. She enjoyed it clearly, started to eat and ruminate. She still can’t bear me when she’s “out in the open”, though.

I realize that many of you may shake your heads about this foolishness: why not go the short way and buy calves? Well, I can only explain it with my stubbornness. Calves don’t feel “right” for me at the moment.

[sanhestar]

Hi,

I realise your location but I must emphasize that you get the castration done by an approved and experienced vet.

You have to have it done under local anaesthesia, at least, the older the animal, the more likely it is that you have to add a general anaestesia, too.

The work has to be done properly, avoid unnecessary bleeding, have good wound healing (scars from castration can have influence on working performance). Poorly castrated horses/mules (especially when castrated older) can develop hernias where the testicles have been cut.

[sanhestar]

thanks for all the opinions and experiences.

For what it’s worth: I agreed with the owner of the herd of mother-raised cattle that I can have my pick from last years calves and introduce myself to them over the next weeks to see which ones respond well to first training steps.

Maybe no cow will turn out to be fit for working but I’ve already got tons of insights on cattle behaviour. They live in a well fenced, not too large pasture right now.

I started with elements from “joining up” and found that they respond to the same body positions as horses (I’m keeping updates about the training sessions, as well).

I will give it till April and if I don’t have a workable result before grazing season begins I will look for calves.

[sanhestar]

I found this story yesterday while surfing

http://www.h-bensberg.de/html/kuhjochschnitzer.html

it’s about the last yoke carver from Ferndorftal, Germany: August Menn. He was a cartwright (waggon-maker) and started carving and selling yokes in 1899

He would pride himself in carving working and showing yokes, fitted to the individual animal.

There’s an interesting paragraph about forehead yokes used before the 1930s. Apparently the shafts of the waggon where put through the rings of the yoke and arrested with pins, fixing the head of the animal. And apparently all padding couldn’t prevent that the vibrations from the cart and the kicks from the shafts would be transmitted to the skull of the oxen/cow.

Therefore this type of yoke was forbidden after 1930 and replaced by yokes that allowed the oxen/cow to be hitched with chains.

Maybe here lies the reason for some of the resentments against forehead yokes.

[sanhestar]

I’d say that it depends on many things if you should/need to blanket a horse and what the effect of blankening will be

If you have a horse with a really heavy winter coat that works itself easy into a sweat (had one of those – imported Iceland horse) it won’t get dry for itself for 12 hours or more. Even in a moderate cold that can’t be good for the animal.

A simple blanket (wool, canvas, etc.) will matt down the hair. What one needs is a blanket that will transport dampness and heat to the outside and has more than one layer. Cordura is a good choice for that, combined with other fibres.

What worked for me and my horse (you need to check if it’s still doable under the weather conditions at your place) is clipping only partially. F.e. if the horse has a long, heavy mane, you might clip only under the mane (allowing some of the body heat to dissipate faster with still providing protection against weather and wind). Or only a part of chest and/or neck that is muscled (the muscles will produce warmth during movement). Or a small (one hand width) stripe around the whole body, running along from the tip of the shoulder to the ischium (I called that ralley stripes). These small “holes” in the overall insulation that the coat provides are points where too much body heat can dissipate faster.

this type may already be too extensive for really cold temperatures. This is ok for moderate winters. But if you keep the belly covered and reduce the amount of clipping on the neck, it may work.

[sanhestar]

BTW – I did a bit of research on milking devons and would like to hear your opinion on this:

after looking at pictures and reading the breeds description I’m fairly certain that milking devon and the German Rotes Höhenvieh (Red Low Mountain Range Cattle – a not very proper term to translate the mountainous regions in the middle of Germany) share a common ancestry.

Check out the following pics:

milking devon

milking devon team

Rotes Höhenvieh

in harness

http://www.rotes-hoehenvieh.de/h_k_katalog_anz.php#

old picture

They share many things:

descendent from celtic cattle, red coat, medium built, fine bones, hard hooves, light muzzle, a bit of white in the middle of the tail hairs, a bit of white at the udder.
Formerly a three purpose cattle: milk, meat, drafting, thrives on poor pasture, good milk yield, renowned worker (in the past)

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